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> And no I do not support white nationalism. Saying that white nationalists, despite their inherently violent nature, deserve a platform is categorically suppo

> And no I do not support white nationalism. Saying that white nationalists, despite their inherently violent nature, deserve a platform is categorically support. You're not acting as a neutral arbiter. Instead, you're saying that this group who spouts violent rhetoric, despite the fact that we as a society have said hate speech should not be tolerated, ought to be able to spread their message.

sparkie 8y ago
> despite the fact that we as a society have said hate speech should not be tolerated Here's your problem. Free speech isn't about "we as a society". "We as a society" had decided that the earth was the center of the universe before Galileo decided to defy "we as a society" to state something unpopular. I'm not suggesting that there is any value in white supremacism like there was in Galileo's speaking of heliocentricism, but his lack of access to free speech protection meant he was persecuted for speaking the unpopular - the idea that you can ban "certain kinds of speech" is going to do precisely the same. Where exactly is the line drawn at what is considered "white supremacism?" What if somebody says something which isn't a white supremacist viewpoint, but some loon misrepresents the view as if it were? You don't seriously think it will end at white supremacism do you? This is just the first step towards incrementally dismantling your right to free speech. The solution to "bad speech" is "good speech", not attempting to issue bans. The Streisand effect is in full force, and each time you try to ban it, you accidentally give them more leverage. The solution is to ignore. Stop advertising for them! That's all you're doing. That doesn't mean that we should ignore actual hate crimes - but can we get back to a sane world where people are innocent until proven guilty, and where we have a legal system where judge and jury get to decide the punishment for crimes - rather than bored, virtue signalling keyboard warriors.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  I agree with your argument and I highly suggest Brenden O'neils argument on offensiveness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HRA At one time, advocating for gay rights or saying god doesn't exist was considered offensive. Only two decades ago, major television networks wouldn't allow jokes critical of Christianity to remain advertiser friendly. A recent episode of The Simpsons had Jesus beating Homer with a sign that said "Love" (standards and practices from 20 years ago wouldn't allow 'Jesus' to even be said in a comedy, which is why "Great Zombie Jesus" was cut out in later edits of the Futurama episode Atlanta). It is offensive speech that has lead to civil rights, gay rights and independence from autocracy. What is and isn't offensive tends to change over time.
ThomPete 8y ago
I don't know about you but I am perfectly capable of holding two parallel opinions at once. I can both think their ideas are absurd and at the same time support their right to have those ideas. That's the very definition of free speech in the US. There are many ideas and messages I don't think should be spread that doesn't mean I am against people being allowed to spread them. You don't know what kind of fire you are playing with here if your think your position is the rational one and have a good outcome.
- ianleeclark 8y ago
  > can both think their ideas are absurd and at the same time support their right to have those ideas. We're not talking about having an ability to have an idea, we're talking about responsibly deplatforming hate speech. > You don't know what kind of fire you are playing with here if your think your position is the rational one and have a good outcome. I can say the same of you and your naive belief that the fascists will be beaten by triumph, will, and logic.
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    Antifa commit hate speech per your definition and conduct violence, should we also ban anticapitalist content? Where does it end? No you cant say the same about my position. Why do you think we have the 1st amendment? Do you understand what lead to it?
bscphil 8y ago
>Saying that white nationalists, despite their inherently violent nature, deserve a platform is categorically support. What? There's no room to support the right of certain people to speak without "supporting" them? "Deserving a platform" is a total red herring here. There's room to worry about the largest platform in the world suppressing speech without claiming that those it suppresses "deserved" that platform. >despite the fact that we as a society have said hate speech should not be tolerated I can't believe you are serious at this point, because it is just so obviously untrue. Have you read what people have had to say in this thread at all? Are you aware that the position of the ACLU is that not only is "hate speech" to be tolerated, it is protected by the First Amendment in the US? https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/free-speech-can-be-messy-we-need-it https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/free-speech-can-be-mes... I say this as someone who's pretty okay with Facebook taking down white nationalist stuff. As big as it is, Facebook simply isn't big enough to create major worries about controlling speech. My problem is that you're not making an argument here at all; you haven't really come to terms with the fact that quite a few reasonable people disagree with you.
- ratling 8y ago
  > What? There's no room to support the right of certain people to speak without "supporting" them? When their speech is to advocate violence against every other group that isn't like them? No there isn't.

sparkie 8y ago

> despite the fact that we as a society have said hate speech should not be tolerated Here's your problem. Free speech isn't about "we as a society". "We as a society" had decided that the earth was the center of the universe before Galileo decided to defy "we as a society" to state something unpopular. I'm not suggesting that there is any value in white supremacism like there was in Galileo's speaking of heliocentricism, but his lack of access to free speech protection meant he was persecuted for speaking the unpopular - the idea that you can ban "certain kinds of speech" is going to do precisely the same. Where exactly is the line drawn at what is considered "white supremacism?" What if somebody says something which isn't a white supremacist viewpoint, but some loon misrepresents the view as if it were? You don't seriously think it will end at white supremacism do you? This is just the first step towards incrementally dismantling your right to free speech. The solution to "bad speech" is "good speech", not attempting to issue bans. The Streisand effect is in full force, and each time you try to ban it, you accidentally give them more leverage. The solution is to ignore. Stop advertising for them! That's all you're doing. That doesn't mean that we should ignore actual hate crimes - but can we get back to a sane world where people are innocent until proven guilty, and where we have a legal system where judge and jury get to decide the punishment for crimes - rather than bored, virtue signalling keyboard warriors.

djsumdog 8y ago
I agree with your argument and I highly suggest Brenden O'neils argument on offensiveness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HRA At one time, advocating for gay rights or saying god doesn't exist was considered offensive. Only two decades ago, major television networks wouldn't allow jokes critical of Christianity to remain advertiser friendly. A recent episode of The Simpsons had Jesus beating Homer with a sign that said "Love" (standards and practices from 20 years ago wouldn't allow 'Jesus' to even be said in a comedy, which is why "Great Zombie Jesus" was cut out in later edits of the Futurama episode Atlanta). It is offensive speech that has lead to civil rights, gay rights and independence from autocracy. What is and isn't offensive tends to change over time.

ThomPete 8y ago

I don't know about you but I am perfectly capable of holding two parallel opinions at once. I can both think their ideas are absurd and at the same time support their right to have those ideas. That's the very definition of free speech in the US. There are many ideas and messages I don't think should be spread that doesn't mean I am against people being allowed to spread them. You don't know what kind of fire you are playing with here if your think your position is the rational one and have a good outcome.

ianleeclark 8y ago
> can both think their ideas are absurd and at the same time support their right to have those ideas. We're not talking about having an ability to have an idea, we're talking about responsibly deplatforming hate speech. > You don't know what kind of fire you are playing with here if your think your position is the rational one and have a good outcome. I can say the same of you and your naive belief that the fascists will be beaten by triumph, will, and logic.
- ThomPete 8y ago
  Antifa commit hate speech per your definition and conduct violence, should we also ban anticapitalist content? Where does it end? No you cant say the same about my position. Why do you think we have the 1st amendment? Do you understand what lead to it?

bscphil 8y ago

>Saying that white nationalists, despite their inherently violent nature, deserve a platform is categorically support. What? There's no room to support the right of certain people to speak without "supporting" them? "Deserving a platform" is a total red herring here. There's room to worry about the largest platform in the world suppressing speech without claiming that those it suppresses "deserved" that platform. >despite the fact that we as a society have said hate speech should not be tolerated I can't believe you are serious at this point, because it is just so obviously untrue. Have you read what people have had to say in this thread at all? Are you aware that the position of the ACLU is that not only is "hate speech" to be tolerated, it is protected by the First Amendment in the US? https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/free-speech-can-be-messy-we-need-it https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/free-speech-can-be-mes... I say this as someone who's pretty okay with Facebook taking down white nationalist stuff. As big as it is, Facebook simply isn't big enough to create major worries about controlling speech. My problem is that you're not making an argument here at all; you haven't really come to terms with the fact that quite a few reasonable people disagree with you.

ratling 8y ago
> What? There's no room to support the right of certain people to speak without "supporting" them? When their speech is to advocate violence against every other group that isn't like them? No there isn't.