8 ms·

It has always been, and always will be, about convenience first. Pre-Spotify and pre-bandcamp, getting music you could play on multiple devices was hard. Pirac

by mfoy_ 8y ago

It has always been, and always will be, about convenience first. Pre-Spotify and pre-bandcamp, getting music you could play on multiple devices was hard. Piracy was the only reliable way you could have the same songs on your walkman, your mp3 player, your phone, and your computer. Bandcamp is nice, in that it offers DRM-free music in high quality, but Spotify offers raw, unadulterated convenience. And Convenience is King.

velcrovan 8y ago
Spotify is literally where I discovered Kings of Convenience https://open.spotify.com/artist/41AbNVba2ccpmcc9QtOJE7?si=4vt9sJDCSW2DITF2x1wBmA https://open.spotify.com/artist/41AbNVba2ccpmcc9QtOJE7?si=4v...
- siquick 8y ago
  Great band. Check out Erland Oyes other band Whitest Boy Alive if you haven't already.
iamben 8y ago
Exactly this. And this is exactly the reason why we'll probably all end up pirating movies again. Pretty much everything mainstream (with the exception of a few artists) is on Spotify. Netflix, Amazon, etc etc. get more fractured every day. Every studio wants their own streaming service. How many will you pay for? 2? 1? 0? Everybody loses.
- hi5eyes 8y ago
  oh theres places to get all the shows streamed for free, and getting even the pirating the most obscure music is easier than ever piracy is currently the most convenient way to consume content now that all the streaming services/labels want to fragment their libraries
  - Moru 8y ago
    They know this but they will still milk as much as they can while they can.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    I don't think we're quite there yet. Assuming a title is on a streaming service that I have a subscription to, piracy is definitely not more convenient. I guess for someone starting from scratch, "what streaming service(s) should I should I subscribe to?" might be a difficult and paralyzing question to the point that the answer might be, "who knows, screw it, I'll just pirate everything".
    - asdff 8y ago
      Oh but it is, if not more so because there are no dark patterns, no screeching autoplay trailers within seconds of opening the app, no 2 second pauses until the next episode, just a very user friendly streaming interface that gets straight to the point. But I won't divulge the name here.
      - cujo 8y ago
        Well that's not very... convenient.
    - Faark 8y ago
      > Assuming a title is on a streaming service that I have a subscription to, piracy is definitely not more convenient. I'm not sure. A friend watches shows on a pirate streaming site, even though they are available for free (but add supported, not that this matters with addblock) on a legal streaming site. It's just easier to always first check the site that always has the desired content available for that particular target audience than some try and error or even an additional google search. But context matters. If you pay for a subscription, wanting to get the most "value" out of that makes sense psychologically (just like the other mindset... "already payed for that, who cares where i watch"). Also if you already got the necessary subscriptions and google always directly leads you to the latest weekly episode, starting there doesn't make a difference. One that's not the case (e.g. you can only watch ever other show an the high sea)... well, having to repeat the search on more than one site would certainly be more effort.
- js2 8y ago
  I’ve been working my way through Ebert’s Great Movies of late and was surprised to discover you can’t find some films online, legally or otherwise. E.g., this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pledge_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pledge_(film) (There’s two DVD rips listed by the indexer I use but neither of them is the complete film, and no streaming service has it.)
  - mr_luc 8y ago
    A silly example of a movie like that I've looked for off and on in a digital/streaming form for a long time is my favorite Marx Brothers movie, "A Night in Casablanca." (I know, I know, it's one of their least 'significant' movies -- but IMO it's their most fun and watchable one).
    - pnutjam 8y ago
      Amazon has it and Tubi claims to. If you watch it and happened to have obs running... https://obsproject.com https://obsproject.com
  - Flenser 8y ago
    It's on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/60004419 https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/60004419 I found it using this: https://www.justwatch.com/uk/search?q=The%20Pledge&content_type=movie https://www.justwatch.com/uk/search?q=The%20Pledge&content_t...
    - js2 8y ago
      I’m a Netflix, Prime, and iTunes user so those were the first places I looked. Maybe it’s a region thing but it’s not actually viewable on Netflix, at least not in the US. (This appears to be a recent change by Netflix where they list movies that can’t actually be viewed. Another example of a movie listed by Netflix but not viewable there is the documentary “The Wrecking Crew” - https://www.netflix.com/title/70105364 https://www.netflix.com/title/70105364) This movie really doesn’t seem to be legally streamable. I found a supposed Bluray rip of it via TPB, and an HN reader emailed me links to a couple very poor quality DVD rips on various sketchy web sites, and there’s some even worse quality CD sized rips on Usenet. The physical media is no longer for sale, and I’m not sure it was ever released to BR, the torrent I found (and still transferring) notwithstanding.
- mfoy_ 8y ago
  It's a bad race to the bottom. If everyone and everything in on Spotify, then everyone is happy (so long as Spotify is a benevolent dictator). However, the value to consumers rapidly declines the second something they want is not on the platform. Netflix is already seriously less useful than it was a few years ago now that more and more copyright holders are pulling their content and starting their own streaming services...
mlthoughts2018 8y ago
I’ve given up trying to understand this. For me, buying a physical disc, transferring the files to my computer, and either putting them into Dropbox or transferring them via VLC to each of my devices is so easy. Amazon music downloads & Bandcamp downloads are even easier. What’s not easy is needing to manage a subscription account, log in on multiple devices, and either manage caching music local to the device (and frequently needing to clear items out of the cache to switch with other items) or always use cellular data services to stream music. I obviously cannot argue with massive consumer trends, but personally I do not understand how anyone thinks streaming services are more convenient. I cannot empathize with any use case where streaming would be more convenient. Whether I’m discovering new music, sharing music, making playlists, or anything else, the absolute number one thing I need is the raw music files. Convenience starts & stops with that.
- diminoten 8y ago
  Okay, so you honestly can't understand how > buying a physical disc, transferring the files to my computer, and either putting them into Dropbox or transferring them via VLC to each of my devices is harder than > Search for song, click "Play" on song ??? And let's not even get into backing up, keeping in sync, correct song metadata, etc. If you honestly can't see how much easier the second thing is compared to the first, I would honestly go see a medical professional about it, because you're literally delusional.
- piptastic 8y ago
  Really? You can't imagine that it's easier to search for a new song on Spotify and play it immediately VS buying a physical disc, transferring the files to your computer, then transferring them again to each of your devices? Just finding the physical discs is huge inconvenience
- hindsightRegret 8y ago
  Having the same playlists, interface, and experience on various different mediums is more convenient. The vast majority of people do not have enough local music to have to clear out their local cache manually. It's easier to share playlists with your friends who are likely all on Spotify as well.
frogpelt 8y ago
Okay, I don't disagree with your premise. And I was a small time pirate before Spotify and the like. But couldn't you legally copy music between devices without being a pirate? Also, surely nobody tried to have music for an MP3 player AND a Walkman. Those have got to be mutually exclusive, don't they? Even smartphones and MP3 players didn't exist together much. I personally started paying for Spotify to help myself feel more ethical about my music consumption. And it is very convenient. Except I haven't ponyed up for the family price yet, so only one person in my family can use it at a time.
jwr 8y ago
Yes, convenience is important, but Spotify also appeals to certain groups which can't reasonably be served by physical media distribution (and individual song sales) at all. I use Spotify to listen mostly to classical music, and I might want to hear something performed by 10 or 20 different performers. There is no way I could afford that by buying "songs" individually. As a side note, Spotify treats classical listeners horribly, ignoring their requests (such as to show more of song titles, or search by label), which I do not understand, because these are the customers that would most likely pay a premium to get better features.
- saaaaaam 8y ago
  > As a side note, Spotify treats classical listeners horribly, ignoring their requests (such as to show more of song titles, or search by label), which I do not understand, because these are the customers that would most likely pay a premium to get better features. This is actually largely to do with what metadata they take and then how they present it. And it’s really tricky. The metadata associated with classical music is generally speaking more complex than (say) a rock track. Until relatively recently there was not (IIRC) a clear format laid out in the DDEX standards (which are the metadata standards associated with delivering music and other media) for how you present the numerous different elements of metadata associated with a classical release. So it is a real mess. I don’t think Spotify necessarily even takes the full metadata spec that you can associate with a classical release. So for example: you may have a recording of the Allegro - which is the third (also written III) movement from Beethoven’s Symphony number 6 - also know as the Pastoral, also known as Op.68 or Opus 68 (and as the “Pastorale” in German) which is in the key of F major. I need to be sure that the track I’m listening to is not the 4th (IV) movement which is also Allegro and definitely not the 1st (I) which is Allegro but not too much - Allegro non troppo. Now - I want the version recorded in Austria by the Weiner Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle produced by Stephen Jones and released on Warner Classics. You however may well prefer the Decca version conducted by Erich Kleiber with the London Philharmonic (but not the London Philharmonia!) produced by Victor Olof. Or you may want the Kleiber-conducted version with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra. How do you distinguish? As you can see there are a whole load of different pieces of metadata on which people might search - and when it comes to classical repertoire these things really matter to the listener. The way labels try to address it currently on Spotify is to simply stuff as much as possible into the track title. Spotify now have some of this listed in the “song credits” but that is relatively recent. And the info on many tracks is far from complete. There are some specialist classical services addressing this - but the problem is I would prefer not to have to subscribe to an additional service just for classical music when most of it is sort of available on my streaming service of choice. So yeah. It’s a mess :)

by mfoy_ 8y ago

velcrovan 8y ago

Spotify is literally where I discovered Kings of Convenience https://open.spotify.com/artist/41AbNVba2ccpmcc9QtOJE7?si=4vt9sJDCSW2DITF2x1wBmA https://open.spotify.com/artist/41AbNVba2ccpmcc9QtOJE7?si=4v...

siquick 8y ago
Great band. Check out Erland Oyes other band Whitest Boy Alive if you haven't already.

iamben 8y ago

Exactly this. And this is exactly the reason why we'll probably all end up pirating movies again. Pretty much everything mainstream (with the exception of a few artists) is on Spotify. Netflix, Amazon, etc etc. get more fractured every day. Every studio wants their own streaming service. How many will you pay for? 2? 1? 0? Everybody loses.

hi5eyes 8y ago
oh theres places to get all the shows streamed for free, and getting even the pirating the most obscure music is easier than ever piracy is currently the most convenient way to consume content now that all the streaming services/labels want to fragment their libraries
- Moru 8y ago
  They know this but they will still milk as much as they can while they can.
- kelnos 8y ago
  I don't think we're quite there yet. Assuming a title is on a streaming service that I have a subscription to, piracy is definitely not more convenient. I guess for someone starting from scratch, "what streaming service(s) should I should I subscribe to?" might be a difficult and paralyzing question to the point that the answer might be, "who knows, screw it, I'll just pirate everything".
  - asdff 8y ago
    Oh but it is, if not more so because there are no dark patterns, no screeching autoplay trailers within seconds of opening the app, no 2 second pauses until the next episode, just a very user friendly streaming interface that gets straight to the point. But I won't divulge the name here.
    - cujo 8y ago
      Well that's not very... convenient.
  - Faark 8y ago
    > Assuming a title is on a streaming service that I have a subscription to, piracy is definitely not more convenient. I'm not sure. A friend watches shows on a pirate streaming site, even though they are available for free (but add supported, not that this matters with addblock) on a legal streaming site. It's just easier to always first check the site that always has the desired content available for that particular target audience than some try and error or even an additional google search. But context matters. If you pay for a subscription, wanting to get the most "value" out of that makes sense psychologically (just like the other mindset... "already payed for that, who cares where i watch"). Also if you already got the necessary subscriptions and google always directly leads you to the latest weekly episode, starting there doesn't make a difference. One that's not the case (e.g. you can only watch ever other show an the high sea)... well, having to repeat the search on more than one site would certainly be more effort.
js2 8y ago
I’ve been working my way through Ebert’s Great Movies of late and was surprised to discover you can’t find some films online, legally or otherwise. E.g., this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pledge_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pledge_(film) (There’s two DVD rips listed by the indexer I use but neither of them is the complete film, and no streaming service has it.)
- mr_luc 8y ago
  A silly example of a movie like that I've looked for off and on in a digital/streaming form for a long time is my favorite Marx Brothers movie, "A Night in Casablanca." (I know, I know, it's one of their least 'significant' movies -- but IMO it's their most fun and watchable one).
  - pnutjam 8y ago
    Amazon has it and Tubi claims to. If you watch it and happened to have obs running... https://obsproject.com https://obsproject.com
- Flenser 8y ago
  It's on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/60004419 https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/60004419 I found it using this: https://www.justwatch.com/uk/search?q=The%20Pledge&content_type=movie https://www.justwatch.com/uk/search?q=The%20Pledge&content_t...
  - js2 8y ago
    I’m a Netflix, Prime, and iTunes user so those were the first places I looked. Maybe it’s a region thing but it’s not actually viewable on Netflix, at least not in the US. (This appears to be a recent change by Netflix where they list movies that can’t actually be viewed. Another example of a movie listed by Netflix but not viewable there is the documentary “The Wrecking Crew” - https://www.netflix.com/title/70105364 https://www.netflix.com/title/70105364) This movie really doesn’t seem to be legally streamable. I found a supposed Bluray rip of it via TPB, and an HN reader emailed me links to a couple very poor quality DVD rips on various sketchy web sites, and there’s some even worse quality CD sized rips on Usenet. The physical media is no longer for sale, and I’m not sure it was ever released to BR, the torrent I found (and still transferring) notwithstanding.
mfoy_ 8y ago
It's a bad race to the bottom. If everyone and everything in on Spotify, then everyone is happy (so long as Spotify is a benevolent dictator). However, the value to consumers rapidly declines the second something they want is not on the platform. Netflix is already seriously less useful than it was a few years ago now that more and more copyright holders are pulling their content and starting their own streaming services...

mlthoughts2018 8y ago

I’ve given up trying to understand this. For me, buying a physical disc, transferring the files to my computer, and either putting them into Dropbox or transferring them via VLC to each of my devices is so easy. Amazon music downloads & Bandcamp downloads are even easier. What’s not easy is needing to manage a subscription account, log in on multiple devices, and either manage caching music local to the device (and frequently needing to clear items out of the cache to switch with other items) or always use cellular data services to stream music. I obviously cannot argue with massive consumer trends, but personally I do not understand how anyone thinks streaming services are more convenient. I cannot empathize with any use case where streaming would be more convenient. Whether I’m discovering new music, sharing music, making playlists, or anything else, the absolute number one thing I need is the raw music files. Convenience starts & stops with that.

diminoten 8y ago
Okay, so you honestly can't understand how > buying a physical disc, transferring the files to my computer, and either putting them into Dropbox or transferring them via VLC to each of my devices is harder than > Search for song, click "Play" on song ??? And let's not even get into backing up, keeping in sync, correct song metadata, etc. If you honestly can't see how much easier the second thing is compared to the first, I would honestly go see a medical professional about it, because you're literally delusional.
piptastic 8y ago
Really? You can't imagine that it's easier to search for a new song on Spotify and play it immediately VS buying a physical disc, transferring the files to your computer, then transferring them again to each of your devices? Just finding the physical discs is huge inconvenience
hindsightRegret 8y ago
Having the same playlists, interface, and experience on various different mediums is more convenient. The vast majority of people do not have enough local music to have to clear out their local cache manually. It's easier to share playlists with your friends who are likely all on Spotify as well.

frogpelt 8y ago

Okay, I don't disagree with your premise. And I was a small time pirate before Spotify and the like. But couldn't you legally copy music between devices without being a pirate? Also, surely nobody tried to have music for an MP3 player AND a Walkman. Those have got to be mutually exclusive, don't they? Even smartphones and MP3 players didn't exist together much. I personally started paying for Spotify to help myself feel more ethical about my music consumption. And it is very convenient. Except I haven't ponyed up for the family price yet, so only one person in my family can use it at a time.

jwr 8y ago

Yes, convenience is important, but Spotify also appeals to certain groups which can't reasonably be served by physical media distribution (and individual song sales) at all. I use Spotify to listen mostly to classical music, and I might want to hear something performed by 10 or 20 different performers. There is no way I could afford that by buying "songs" individually. As a side note, Spotify treats classical listeners horribly, ignoring their requests (such as to show more of song titles, or search by label), which I do not understand, because these are the customers that would most likely pay a premium to get better features.

saaaaaam 8y ago
> As a side note, Spotify treats classical listeners horribly, ignoring their requests (such as to show more of song titles, or search by label), which I do not understand, because these are the customers that would most likely pay a premium to get better features. This is actually largely to do with what metadata they take and then how they present it. And it’s really tricky. The metadata associated with classical music is generally speaking more complex than (say) a rock track. Until relatively recently there was not (IIRC) a clear format laid out in the DDEX standards (which are the metadata standards associated with delivering music and other media) for how you present the numerous different elements of metadata associated with a classical release. So it is a real mess. I don’t think Spotify necessarily even takes the full metadata spec that you can associate with a classical release. So for example: you may have a recording of the Allegro - which is the third (also written III) movement from Beethoven’s Symphony number 6 - also know as the Pastoral, also known as Op.68 or Opus 68 (and as the “Pastorale” in German) which is in the key of F major. I need to be sure that the track I’m listening to is not the 4th (IV) movement which is also Allegro and definitely not the 1st (I) which is Allegro but not too much - Allegro non troppo. Now - I want the version recorded in Austria by the Weiner Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle produced by Stephen Jones and released on Warner Classics. You however may well prefer the Decca version conducted by Erich Kleiber with the London Philharmonic (but not the London Philharmonia!) produced by Victor Olof. Or you may want the Kleiber-conducted version with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra. How do you distinguish? As you can see there are a whole load of different pieces of metadata on which people might search - and when it comes to classical repertoire these things really matter to the listener. The way labels try to address it currently on Spotify is to simply stuff as much as possible into the track title. Spotify now have some of this listed in the “song credits” but that is relatively recent. And the info on many tracks is far from complete. There are some specialist classical services addressing this - but the problem is I would prefer not to have to subscribe to an additional service just for classical music when most of it is sort of available on my streaming service of choice. So yeah. It’s a mess :)