5 ms·

Since it wasn't mentioned in the bloomberg article, whoever has been paying attention knows that shutting down backpage has made sex workers less safe and more

by milemi 8y ago

Since it wasn't mentioned in the bloomberg article, whoever has been paying attention knows that shutting down backpage has made sex workers less safe and more dependent on pimps. Prostitution should be completely legal and brought into the light, not pushed into the shadows.

dmos62 8y ago
A very good presentation on the topic, by an activist with the Sex Worker Open University: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJRBx0JjM_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJRBx0JjM_M Even if I had found the content uninteresting, I would have still watched through the whole thing because of how well written I found it.
prolepunk 8y ago
Now that shutting down backpage made the hardline stance on the issue mainstream, this lawsuit is one consequence of that.
Pharmakon 8y ago
The issue of sex work seems only tangentially related to human trafficking. Prostitution should be legal (and regulated), but human trafficking really shouldn’t be.
- dyeje 8y ago
  ~80% of human trafficking victims are sexually exploited [1]. So that seems alot more than tangential. I don't think anyone is arguing that human trafficking should be legal. [1] https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-trafficking/global-report-on-trafficking-in-persons.html https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-trafficking/global-repo...
- gimmeThaBeet 8y ago
  The argument is that if a reasonable legal market exists to do things, there's less incentive for the dangerous/harmful ways to do things, hopefully to the point its not worth it. And I hope its fair to say that criminals are in the business of trading risk of arrest/harm for money, and an overwhelming majority of trafficking is for that purpose. I'm not saying you'll fix it overnight, people still smuggle cigarettes as a form of tax arbitrage, but changing the market incentives absolutely has an effect on behavior.
  - Pharmakon 8y ago
    There will never be a legal market for underage girls, slaves, etc. Some markets just shouldn’t exist, but demand clearly exists for them. Drugs are easy because the black market is so much worse than legalization, but that’s not the case here. There will also be a market for cheaper alternatives to legal offerings, and you can’t get cheaper than slavery. Contrary to what some people desperately need to believe, markets don’t solve everything. If someone wants a disposable prostitute, someone to abuse, someone underage, someone unwilling, they’re not going to care about legal avenues which don’t satisfy their desires.
    - hrktb 8y ago
      > There will never be a legal market for underage girls, slaves, etc. Tangential, but I feel there is always an effort to cater to part of these "dark" markets with as harmless as possible ersatz (underage fictional porn, dolls/robotics, etc), but there will still be a strong negative reaction from some part of the society trying to ban the ersatz as a slippery slope. I get that for any action there will always be a reaction, it's just depressing that most of the public opinion will agree more to principled but inefficient moral stands than to efforts to move the ball in the right direction.
      - Pharmakon 8y ago
        It’s a very emotional subject for a lot of people, and while like you I see ersatz products as a good choice for people who would otherwise engage in the real thing, I also know that it’s a hard position to promulgate. For one, there isn’t a clear consensus as to whether or not (for example) fantasy underage porn/dolls acts to reduce or increase offender’s likliehood to offend. There is the argument that it can be a pressure relief valve, and an argument that it reinforces tendencies and like any addiction will tend to build tolerance. When the fakes stop being effective then maybe all they achieve is acting as a kind of practice. It’s known that poeple with violent, vivid fantasies for example, are at higher risk for acting out violently than people without them. Is it correlation or causation? We don’t know. So it’s hard to take this mass of uncertainty to a public that mostly wants to “hang them all” where sex offenders are concerned, and make a case for ersatz interactions. Part of this is moralizing, part of it is true uncertainty, and part of it is understandable revulsion.
nabnob 8y ago
Full legalization increases trafficking and allows brothels, which are basically pimps who are able to operate legally. http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/45198/1/Neumayer_Legalized_Prostitution_Increase_2012.pdf http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/45198/1/Neumayer_Legalized_Prostitu... The Nordic Model - decriminalization of selling, with criminalization of purchasing - protects sex workers from pimps and has been very successful in the countries that have instituted it.
- milemi 8y ago
  Human trafficking is just another word for illegal immigration. It just sounds more sinister and it gives a way for anti-immigration folks to sound humane and pretend like they care about the trafficked people, when they really care about not letting them in. As long as you have inescapable poverty and hardship in some countries, and no legal ways for people to get in, you'll have human trafficking. The only way to stop it is to let people in. The harder you try to ban it the worse it gets for the trafficked, but as I said, their well being is not the true concern of anti-trafficking laws at all. As for sex work, there's absolutely no good reason why it shouldn't be completely destigmatized, decriminalized, and treated like any other kind of work. There are some inherent risks, but if it's decriminalized they can be managed and brought down to acceptable levels. There are certainly jobs with higher inherent risks, like working in lumber, or oil rigs, or construction. For women who aren't savvy enough to make it on their own, brothels are a good solution. With decriminalization, the bosses in brothels can be kept accountable.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Human trafficking is just another word for illegal immigration. No, it's not, because human trafficking can occur without crossing an limited-migration border. As usually used, it's very close to the union of de facto slavery and sex work. (To be fair, those categories have significant overlap, but there's a lot of push to include the parts of the latter that aren't the former within the reach of of the term.)
    - milemi 8y ago
clavalle 8y ago
I would agree with you only if those that choose prostitution are doing it completely of their own free will. This means not only not being actively forced but passively forced through desperate circumstances. I don't think our social safety net in the US is nearly strong enough to ensure that such passive desperation is not a driving factor in the decision. The last thing in the world I'd want to see is a desperate single mother go to get welfare benefits and getting asked 'So...did you even /apply/ to the brothel down the street?'
anitil 8y ago
Reply All had a great podcast about it [0]. Beware it's very depressing. The expert points out that shutting down Backpage will have a worldwide impact on sex workers. [0] https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/119-no-more-safe-harbor https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/119-no-more-safe-harbo...

by milemi 8y ago

dmos62 8y ago

A very good presentation on the topic, by an activist with the Sex Worker Open University: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJRBx0JjM_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJRBx0JjM_M Even if I had found the content uninteresting, I would have still watched through the whole thing because of how well written I found it.

prolepunk 8y ago

Now that shutting down backpage made the hardline stance on the issue mainstream, this lawsuit is one consequence of that.

Pharmakon 8y ago

The issue of sex work seems only tangentially related to human trafficking. Prostitution should be legal (and regulated), but human trafficking really shouldn’t be.

dyeje 8y ago
~80% of human trafficking victims are sexually exploited [1]. So that seems alot more than tangential. I don't think anyone is arguing that human trafficking should be legal. [1] https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-trafficking/global-report-on-trafficking-in-persons.html https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-trafficking/global-repo...
gimmeThaBeet 8y ago
The argument is that if a reasonable legal market exists to do things, there's less incentive for the dangerous/harmful ways to do things, hopefully to the point its not worth it. And I hope its fair to say that criminals are in the business of trading risk of arrest/harm for money, and an overwhelming majority of trafficking is for that purpose. I'm not saying you'll fix it overnight, people still smuggle cigarettes as a form of tax arbitrage, but changing the market incentives absolutely has an effect on behavior.
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  There will never be a legal market for underage girls, slaves, etc. Some markets just shouldn’t exist, but demand clearly exists for them. Drugs are easy because the black market is so much worse than legalization, but that’s not the case here. There will also be a market for cheaper alternatives to legal offerings, and you can’t get cheaper than slavery. Contrary to what some people desperately need to believe, markets don’t solve everything. If someone wants a disposable prostitute, someone to abuse, someone underage, someone unwilling, they’re not going to care about legal avenues which don’t satisfy their desires.
  - hrktb 8y ago
    > There will never be a legal market for underage girls, slaves, etc. Tangential, but I feel there is always an effort to cater to part of these "dark" markets with as harmless as possible ersatz (underage fictional porn, dolls/robotics, etc), but there will still be a strong negative reaction from some part of the society trying to ban the ersatz as a slippery slope. I get that for any action there will always be a reaction, it's just depressing that most of the public opinion will agree more to principled but inefficient moral stands than to efforts to move the ball in the right direction.
    - Pharmakon 8y ago
      It’s a very emotional subject for a lot of people, and while like you I see ersatz products as a good choice for people who would otherwise engage in the real thing, I also know that it’s a hard position to promulgate. For one, there isn’t a clear consensus as to whether or not (for example) fantasy underage porn/dolls acts to reduce or increase offender’s likliehood to offend. There is the argument that it can be a pressure relief valve, and an argument that it reinforces tendencies and like any addiction will tend to build tolerance. When the fakes stop being effective then maybe all they achieve is acting as a kind of practice. It’s known that poeple with violent, vivid fantasies for example, are at higher risk for acting out violently than people without them. Is it correlation or causation? We don’t know. So it’s hard to take this mass of uncertainty to a public that mostly wants to “hang them all” where sex offenders are concerned, and make a case for ersatz interactions. Part of this is moralizing, part of it is true uncertainty, and part of it is understandable revulsion.

nabnob 8y ago

Full legalization increases trafficking and allows brothels, which are basically pimps who are able to operate legally. http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/45198/1/Neumayer_Legalized_Prostitution_Increase_2012.pdf http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/45198/1/Neumayer_Legalized_Prostitu... The Nordic Model - decriminalization of selling, with criminalization of purchasing - protects sex workers from pimps and has been very successful in the countries that have instituted it.

milemi 8y ago
Human trafficking is just another word for illegal immigration. It just sounds more sinister and it gives a way for anti-immigration folks to sound humane and pretend like they care about the trafficked people, when they really care about not letting them in. As long as you have inescapable poverty and hardship in some countries, and no legal ways for people to get in, you'll have human trafficking. The only way to stop it is to let people in. The harder you try to ban it the worse it gets for the trafficked, but as I said, their well being is not the true concern of anti-trafficking laws at all. As for sex work, there's absolutely no good reason why it shouldn't be completely destigmatized, decriminalized, and treated like any other kind of work. There are some inherent risks, but if it's decriminalized they can be managed and brought down to acceptable levels. There are certainly jobs with higher inherent risks, like working in lumber, or oil rigs, or construction. For women who aren't savvy enough to make it on their own, brothels are a good solution. With decriminalization, the bosses in brothels can be kept accountable.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Human trafficking is just another word for illegal immigration. No, it's not, because human trafficking can occur without crossing an limited-migration border. As usually used, it's very close to the union of de facto slavery and sex work. (To be fair, those categories have significant overlap, but there's a lot of push to include the parts of the latter that aren't the former within the reach of of the term.)
  - milemi 8y ago

clavalle 8y ago

I would agree with you only if those that choose prostitution are doing it completely of their own free will. This means not only not being actively forced but passively forced through desperate circumstances. I don't think our social safety net in the US is nearly strong enough to ensure that such passive desperation is not a driving factor in the decision. The last thing in the world I'd want to see is a desperate single mother go to get welfare benefits and getting asked 'So...did you even /apply/ to the brothel down the street?'

anitil 8y ago

Reply All had a great podcast about it [0]. Beware it's very depressing. The expert points out that shutting down Backpage will have a worldwide impact on sex workers. [0] https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/119-no-more-safe-harbor https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/119-no-more-safe-harbo...