4 ms·

It always sucks to get laid off, not disregarding it. I empathize with the employees who weren’t expecting it. I can only speak for myself but the minute I get

It always sucks to get laid off, not disregarding it. I empathize with the employees who weren’t expecting it. I can only speak for myself but the minute I get a job, I know that I can be terminated at any moment for whatever reason. There should never be any shock. Even if you move across the world for a position, it could happen on your first day. You have to always be prepared if you’re gonna be working under someone else’s roof.

CydeWeys 8y ago
> Even if you move across the world for a position, it could happen on your first day. That's why I'd never move anywhere for a job that doesn't have plenty of alternate options if the first doesn't work out. That's why places like SF, Seattle, and NYC are so powerful for tech, and one-company towns like a lot of the Amazon HQ2 proposals would be are not. Good luck convincing top-tier talent to move somewhere where you're the only game in town.
danpalmer 8y ago
> Even if you move across the world for a position, it could happen on your first day. True, but in many places in the world employee rights are such that this might be a significantly less bad situation. If you're a month's severance pay, perhaps your signing bonus, etc, then you might not be out of pocket by the time you get a new job. Particularly if you're working in a high demand industry.
- akuji1993 8y ago
  Also countries like Germany have VERY massive employee protection. Once you're out of the probation period (usually 3-6 months) the company needs a very good reason (down-sizing being one) to fire you. Not even you slacking off, not doing job can immediately get you fired as you first need to receive a few warnings. The US is very bad regarding employee protection, other countries handle this differently.
  - danpalmer 8y ago
    Exactly. In fact in the UK if you want to lay off more than a certain (fairly small) number of staff then you get audited to ensure that you couldn't have possibly kept them on or found them jobs elsewhere in your company. Once you make someone redundant you're also not allowed to re-hire for that position for 6 months I believe, again to ensure that you're not using layoffs inappropriately. Note: this is all different to _firing_ someone. I understand in the US these two are often less distinct. Firing someone opens you up to a different kind of legal liability, you essentially have to be able to prove that they weren't good enough at their job, should they take you to court over being fired.
johnchristopher 8y ago
Oh, please. You are not on the side of a dusty road at 5am, waiting to see if the guy riding the van is going to pick you up for working the field or helping with the construction crew or leaving you there or not coming at all. Besides that you can't deliver your best and long-term work if everyday you come home you have to manage the stress maybe not having a job the following day. Without at least some kind of stability in the workforce you can't plan things like keeping the car, the home, the wife, etc. > I can only speak for myself [..] And then proceeds to talk for everyone. No, really. Terminated for any reasons? Bollocks.
- akuji1993 8y ago
  You are in fact describing what a lot of Americans are going through. There are a lot of "at will" employment states, that can fire you without any reason given, any day. It also does impact if you can keep the car, the home and other worldly belongings (if your wife leaves you because you lost your job, maybe you dodged a bullet). That causes a lot of stress and is indeed a major issue on the US employment market.
  - johnchristopher 8y ago
    > That causes a lot of stress and is indeed a major issue on the US employment market. I'd say it's a major issue on the US citizen's quality of life.
    - rocketpastsix 8y ago
      It absolutely is and is made worse when you consider that a large amount of Americans do not have $1,000 in savings. Most would struggle to find $400 in an emergency situation.
zerkten 8y ago
> I know that I can be terminated at any moment for whatever reason. This is true for the US, but it's not necessarily true for the EU, or some other countries. As a result, expectations can be mismatched - even though reasonable research should turn up this possibility. My experience suggests that a lot of folks in their early career are overly optimistic, or just don't want to believe the possible downsides, especially if it involves cool work. I also see different decisions taken by folks I know in other industry who are not under the spell of tech. With remote working, especially with smaller companies that have limited admin/HR support, I wonder will the number of these incidents increase? This is possibly another way to look at this situation beyond the "startups and stock a minefield" issue which results in lots of tears.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  In the EU there’s a trial period as well and during that period you can be fired for any reason without compensation.
  - sebazzz 8y ago
    Yes, but this differs per country. In the Netherlands this can be one or two months depending on the employment [1]. It is meant so either party can back out. After this regular rules apply. Which are _not_ as forgiving. [1]: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/arbeidsovereenkomst-en-cao/vraag-en-antwoord/hoelang-duurt-een-proeftijd https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/arbeidsovereenkomst...
dagw 8y ago
Even if you move across the world for a position, it could happen on your first day. Sure, but in many parts of the world they'll probably also owe you at least 2 month wages if they do that.

CydeWeys 8y ago

> Even if you move across the world for a position, it could happen on your first day. That's why I'd never move anywhere for a job that doesn't have plenty of alternate options if the first doesn't work out. That's why places like SF, Seattle, and NYC are so powerful for tech, and one-company towns like a lot of the Amazon HQ2 proposals would be are not. Good luck convincing top-tier talent to move somewhere where you're the only game in town.

danpalmer 8y ago

> Even if you move across the world for a position, it could happen on your first day. True, but in many places in the world employee rights are such that this might be a significantly less bad situation. If you're a month's severance pay, perhaps your signing bonus, etc, then you might not be out of pocket by the time you get a new job. Particularly if you're working in a high demand industry.

akuji1993 8y ago
Also countries like Germany have VERY massive employee protection. Once you're out of the probation period (usually 3-6 months) the company needs a very good reason (down-sizing being one) to fire you. Not even you slacking off, not doing job can immediately get you fired as you first need to receive a few warnings. The US is very bad regarding employee protection, other countries handle this differently.
- danpalmer 8y ago
  Exactly. In fact in the UK if you want to lay off more than a certain (fairly small) number of staff then you get audited to ensure that you couldn't have possibly kept them on or found them jobs elsewhere in your company. Once you make someone redundant you're also not allowed to re-hire for that position for 6 months I believe, again to ensure that you're not using layoffs inappropriately. Note: this is all different to _firing_ someone. I understand in the US these two are often less distinct. Firing someone opens you up to a different kind of legal liability, you essentially have to be able to prove that they weren't good enough at their job, should they take you to court over being fired.

johnchristopher 8y ago

Oh, please. You are not on the side of a dusty road at 5am, waiting to see if the guy riding the van is going to pick you up for working the field or helping with the construction crew or leaving you there or not coming at all. Besides that you can't deliver your best and long-term work if everyday you come home you have to manage the stress maybe not having a job the following day. Without at least some kind of stability in the workforce you can't plan things like keeping the car, the home, the wife, etc. > I can only speak for myself [..] And then proceeds to talk for everyone. No, really. Terminated for any reasons? Bollocks.

akuji1993 8y ago
You are in fact describing what a lot of Americans are going through. There are a lot of "at will" employment states, that can fire you without any reason given, any day. It also does impact if you can keep the car, the home and other worldly belongings (if your wife leaves you because you lost your job, maybe you dodged a bullet). That causes a lot of stress and is indeed a major issue on the US employment market.
- johnchristopher 8y ago
  > That causes a lot of stress and is indeed a major issue on the US employment market. I'd say it's a major issue on the US citizen's quality of life.
  - rocketpastsix 8y ago
    It absolutely is and is made worse when you consider that a large amount of Americans do not have $1,000 in savings. Most would struggle to find $400 in an emergency situation.

zerkten 8y ago

> I know that I can be terminated at any moment for whatever reason. This is true for the US, but it's not necessarily true for the EU, or some other countries. As a result, expectations can be mismatched - even though reasonable research should turn up this possibility. My experience suggests that a lot of folks in their early career are overly optimistic, or just don't want to believe the possible downsides, especially if it involves cool work. I also see different decisions taken by folks I know in other industry who are not under the spell of tech. With remote working, especially with smaller companies that have limited admin/HR support, I wonder will the number of these incidents increase? This is possibly another way to look at this situation beyond the "startups and stock a minefield" issue which results in lots of tears.

tinus_hn 8y ago
In the EU there’s a trial period as well and during that period you can be fired for any reason without compensation.
- sebazzz 8y ago
  Yes, but this differs per country. In the Netherlands this can be one or two months depending on the employment [1]. It is meant so either party can back out. After this regular rules apply. Which are _not_ as forgiving. [1]: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/arbeidsovereenkomst-en-cao/vraag-en-antwoord/hoelang-duurt-een-proeftijd https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/arbeidsovereenkomst...

dagw 8y ago

Even if you move across the world for a position, it could happen on your first day. Sure, but in many parts of the world they'll probably also owe you at least 2 month wages if they do that.