4 ms·

my impression is that unless you're in a super high-demand and high-level role (ie. Andrew Ng), it's still not that appealing compared to the US. For engineerin

by max_im 8y ago

my impression is that unless you're in a super high-demand and high-level role (ie. Andrew Ng), it's still not that appealing compared to the US. For engineering roles, you're going to be worked harder and for lower pay than in the US. As an engineer with a degree in Chinese, I originally planned on working in China but found much better options stateside. Some of my colleagues have been successful in getting decent business-side tech jobs in China, or doing supply side stuff for businesses based outside of China.

koala_man 8y ago
>for lower pay How is it when adjusted for cost of living though?
- orian 8y ago
  Holidays, iPhones and cars cost almost the same everywhere. As an engineer "adjusted" usually means you're underpaid :-)
  - koala_man 8y ago
    What's your spend on those things compared to housing, food and services?
    - xenihn 8y ago
      May as well go to Taiwan if that's your concern.
  - lm28469 8y ago
    Anecdata; I live in berlin and get about the same salary as my uni friends who stayed in Paris. I live in the city center 5 min away from my office and can eat every single meal in a restaurant + go out every other night for a couple of drinks without even having to look at my bank account. I'd be bankrupt in two weeks if I had the same lifestyle in Paris. Sure iphones and vacations cost the same, but restraining your day to day life (aka 95% of your life) to get the next apple gadget or plan your next vacation seems like a pretty bleak life plan.
    - orian 8y ago
      So you've chosen the right place to live. As an engineer who changed the country and got salary adjusted, it's just bad economical life choice. It's better to earn more, your options are just so much wider. You can save money, invest etc. Before I could buy iPhone for less than 10% of monthly salary, now it would be more like one monthly salary. I use iPhone as the example, but the life for me is not 10x cheaper, maybe 2-3x. Therefore, unless you have some other reasons, choose place with highest salaries or companies which don't adjust or work remotely.
- Digory 8y ago
  COL is a little better, but far closer than people think. Real Estate prices in the best areas of Beijing can easily top $1,000 a sq. foot to buy an apartment (though there may be an inversion in rent). Comparable cars are more expensive. Consumer goods are about par. Education for kids can be expensive. Food can be cheaper in China. But a western quality life in a first tier city will not be all that cheap.
- zhte415 8y ago
  What adjustment for cost of living? Assuming living in a Tier-1 where the tech-hubs are (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen), rents for a 2/3 bedroom apartment somewhat centralish (these are vastly larger, more populous, and higher density than most American or European cities) will be at least USD 2000, possibly 4000 depending on taste (apartment, not house). Pension may need to be privately paid, and tax-band will be above 40% for anything that can support the above. Purchasing equivalent consumables like food and eating out western-style will be the same or double than the cost in most of the USA. If with kids then international schools are pretty expensive in China, over USD 20k per kid per year. International driving license not hard but car questionable as the above Tier-1 cities have restrictions / waiting lists / lotteries on license plates. Cost-of-living adjustment is only relevant if: no kids, no pension, able to adapt to eat locally (quite hard for a lot of people especially when hitting the ground with a full time job), don't mind a 30-60+ minute subway commute (cheaper rents).
  - jayrot 8y ago
    > eating out western-style There's your problem, LOL.
  - presentation 8y ago
    It sounds like you never really tried to integrate, so here’s my experience living in Shanghai, the most expensive mainland city - eating mostly Chinese food I would eat stuff like jianbing with chicken and pork for breakfast for about $0.80, lived in a studio apt in a shikumen building 5 mins walk from IAPM/陕西南路站 (I would consider, quite central) for about $400/mo that I actually found on Airbnb, not even using local apt finding services (bc I was there relatively short term, 4 months, and didn’t want to sign a lease) where I could have found one even cheaper probably, and was eating out for dinner at an average cost of maybe $5 to $7 per meal, or around $20-$30 if I wanted to splurge. Then again, I took time to learn Mandarin against the advising of expats who reassured me that I’d never get any good and therefore should just not try, so maybe that’s where my perspective differs. Sounds like your problem is trying to replicate western lifestyle in China, if you do that everyone sniffs the blood and will find ways to rip you off on everything. Though yeah, schooling probably would be a pretty big expense - no way I’d send my kid to Chinese schools either.
cepp 8y ago
While I agree with you about the money and work-ethic, I think some aspects can be far more rewarding than in the US. In China, you're not making an absurd of money for it to only go to taxes and COL. Instead, you make a comfortable amount (comparably) and can still live a good life. I also haven't found it particularly difficult to get good offers. Quality systems engineers and architects are in high demand in China (due to both the ML boom but also low quality of this particular aspect of CS education there) and so if you find the right company you can be making just as much as in the US if not more (speaking from experience).

by max_im 8y ago

koala_man 8y ago

>for lower pay How is it when adjusted for cost of living though?

orian 8y ago
Holidays, iPhones and cars cost almost the same everywhere. As an engineer "adjusted" usually means you're underpaid :-)
- koala_man 8y ago
  What's your spend on those things compared to housing, food and services?
  - xenihn 8y ago
    May as well go to Taiwan if that's your concern.
- lm28469 8y ago
  Anecdata; I live in berlin and get about the same salary as my uni friends who stayed in Paris. I live in the city center 5 min away from my office and can eat every single meal in a restaurant + go out every other night for a couple of drinks without even having to look at my bank account. I'd be bankrupt in two weeks if I had the same lifestyle in Paris. Sure iphones and vacations cost the same, but restraining your day to day life (aka 95% of your life) to get the next apple gadget or plan your next vacation seems like a pretty bleak life plan.
  - orian 8y ago
    So you've chosen the right place to live. As an engineer who changed the country and got salary adjusted, it's just bad economical life choice. It's better to earn more, your options are just so much wider. You can save money, invest etc. Before I could buy iPhone for less than 10% of monthly salary, now it would be more like one monthly salary. I use iPhone as the example, but the life for me is not 10x cheaper, maybe 2-3x. Therefore, unless you have some other reasons, choose place with highest salaries or companies which don't adjust or work remotely.
Digory 8y ago
COL is a little better, but far closer than people think. Real Estate prices in the best areas of Beijing can easily top $1,000 a sq. foot to buy an apartment (though there may be an inversion in rent). Comparable cars are more expensive. Consumer goods are about par. Education for kids can be expensive. Food can be cheaper in China. But a western quality life in a first tier city will not be all that cheap.
zhte415 8y ago
What adjustment for cost of living? Assuming living in a Tier-1 where the tech-hubs are (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen), rents for a 2/3 bedroom apartment somewhat centralish (these are vastly larger, more populous, and higher density than most American or European cities) will be at least USD 2000, possibly 4000 depending on taste (apartment, not house). Pension may need to be privately paid, and tax-band will be above 40% for anything that can support the above. Purchasing equivalent consumables like food and eating out western-style will be the same or double than the cost in most of the USA. If with kids then international schools are pretty expensive in China, over USD 20k per kid per year. International driving license not hard but car questionable as the above Tier-1 cities have restrictions / waiting lists / lotteries on license plates. Cost-of-living adjustment is only relevant if: no kids, no pension, able to adapt to eat locally (quite hard for a lot of people especially when hitting the ground with a full time job), don't mind a 30-60+ minute subway commute (cheaper rents).
- jayrot 8y ago
  > eating out western-style There's your problem, LOL.
- presentation 8y ago
  It sounds like you never really tried to integrate, so here’s my experience living in Shanghai, the most expensive mainland city - eating mostly Chinese food I would eat stuff like jianbing with chicken and pork for breakfast for about $0.80, lived in a studio apt in a shikumen building 5 mins walk from IAPM/陕西南路站 (I would consider, quite central) for about $400/mo that I actually found on Airbnb, not even using local apt finding services (bc I was there relatively short term, 4 months, and didn’t want to sign a lease) where I could have found one even cheaper probably, and was eating out for dinner at an average cost of maybe $5 to $7 per meal, or around $20-$30 if I wanted to splurge. Then again, I took time to learn Mandarin against the advising of expats who reassured me that I’d never get any good and therefore should just not try, so maybe that’s where my perspective differs. Sounds like your problem is trying to replicate western lifestyle in China, if you do that everyone sniffs the blood and will find ways to rip you off on everything. Though yeah, schooling probably would be a pretty big expense - no way I’d send my kid to Chinese schools either.

cepp 8y ago

While I agree with you about the money and work-ethic, I think some aspects can be far more rewarding than in the US. In China, you're not making an absurd of money for it to only go to taxes and COL. Instead, you make a comfortable amount (comparably) and can still live a good life. I also haven't found it particularly difficult to get good offers. Quality systems engineers and architects are in high demand in China (due to both the ML boom but also low quality of this particular aspect of CS education there) and so if you find the right company you can be making just as much as in the US if not more (speaking from experience).