4 ms·

The people that made a mistake are unstable and should be treated as unstable. It's not like there is only one thing to vote on on a given day. There are ofte

by dagw 8y ago

The people that made a mistake are unstable and should be treated as unstable. It's not like there is only one thing to vote on on a given day. There are often dozens of votes covering a huge spectrum of issues often with very obtuse names and wording. So many people bring 'cheat sheets' so that they can remember what they're planning on voting on each issue. The problem in this case was that the order that issues where being voted on changed at the last minute and not everybody got the news and updated their notes. So it wasn't that they pressed the YES when they meant to press NO, its that they thought they where answering YES to question 36 when they where infact answering YES to question 37.

DarkWiiPlayer 8y ago
Oh, okay, so the real problem is that they can't even remember what they're going to vote on. Isn't this actually even worse though? they "didn't get the memo" that they were voting for the wrong thing? Is that how we want politics to work?
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  No, it's not, and these people should be held accountable for that for sure. On the other hand, we don't know the exact details of how the whole system is set up. It might be that "they "didn't get the memo" that they were voting for the wrong thing?" is underselling that the whole system is full of bad (if not flat-out dark) UI/UX patterns that increase the chance of mistakes like this. A good run-through of that might benefit everyone. I will confess that I'm probably a bit biased in my interpretation of the context; I quickly feel overwhelmed by administration stuff and am always scared in bureaucratic contexts that I fill in some form incorrectly. Basically, it makes me feel like I'm in Jim Henson's Paperwork Explosion[0]. So doing that as your job sounds terrifyingly stressful to me (and yes, I do realize it's weird that I don't feel the same about programming, which is arguably the act of writing instructions for an unforgiving literal-minded bureaucratic automaton). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZw2CoYztk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZw2CoYztk
self_awareness 8y ago
Why should I accept the excuse that MEPs are using bad cheat sheets? I've heard excuses like this in my 1-st grade in elementary school. Why did you not do your homework? I did, but the dog ate it. MEPs that voted wrong are not fit to vote. If they can't figure out and insure themselves against a rogue action like changing vote order in the last minute, I don't think they belong to EP, since they're too easy to manipulate. I mean, the decisions they're making affect everyone in EU, and more. I can't imagine how one shouldn't take a vote like this dead serious.
- phiresky 8y ago
  You should watch this video about how bad the voting procedures actually are: https://youtu.be/lzigiPUXNzI https://youtu.be/lzigiPUXNzI
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    That's absolutely insane.
craigsmansion 8y ago
To illustrate: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sed/doc/news/flash/22221/SYN_OJ_March%20II_STR%20V2_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sed/doc/news/flash/22221/SYN_O... If I read the document correctly, the second column, 12:30 to 14:30, and 17:00 to 18:15 are all votes (with A8-0245/2018 VOSS being the topical one). Much as we collectively like to pore over and focus on the specific things that matter to us, it's not like they "had one job" that particular session.
ghostDancer 8y ago
It's their job, they are really well paid for it.They messed it up(I'm being gentle) but they won't get any consequence for it but the rest of the EU will. They should be paying attention, they should resign immediately for incompetence.
- dagw 8y ago
  Yes, this is a monumental cock up, and yes people fucked up. But it's hardly the first time it happens. Perhaps instead of just blaming the users (and I have no problem with also blaming the users in this case) we should also look at the underlying systemic issues that keep causing this to happen.
  - ghostDancer 8y ago
    Absolutely agree, part of the problem is the way they do those things. It should be more clear what they are voting for, how they vote, and they should pay more attention, and that's the reason the vote can't be changed afterwards.

by dagw 8y ago

DarkWiiPlayer 8y ago

Oh, okay, so the real problem is that they can't even remember what they're going to vote on. Isn't this actually even worse though? they "didn't get the memo" that they were voting for the wrong thing? Is that how we want politics to work?

vanderZwan 8y ago
No, it's not, and these people should be held accountable for that for sure. On the other hand, we don't know the exact details of how the whole system is set up. It might be that "they "didn't get the memo" that they were voting for the wrong thing?" is underselling that the whole system is full of bad (if not flat-out dark) UI/UX patterns that increase the chance of mistakes like this. A good run-through of that might benefit everyone. I will confess that I'm probably a bit biased in my interpretation of the context; I quickly feel overwhelmed by administration stuff and am always scared in bureaucratic contexts that I fill in some form incorrectly. Basically, it makes me feel like I'm in Jim Henson's Paperwork Explosion[0]. So doing that as your job sounds terrifyingly stressful to me (and yes, I do realize it's weird that I don't feel the same about programming, which is arguably the act of writing instructions for an unforgiving literal-minded bureaucratic automaton). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZw2CoYztk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZw2CoYztk

self_awareness 8y ago

Why should I accept the excuse that MEPs are using bad cheat sheets? I've heard excuses like this in my 1-st grade in elementary school. Why did you not do your homework? I did, but the dog ate it. MEPs that voted wrong are not fit to vote. If they can't figure out and insure themselves against a rogue action like changing vote order in the last minute, I don't think they belong to EP, since they're too easy to manipulate. I mean, the decisions they're making affect everyone in EU, and more. I can't imagine how one shouldn't take a vote like this dead serious.

phiresky 8y ago
You should watch this video about how bad the voting procedures actually are: https://youtu.be/lzigiPUXNzI https://youtu.be/lzigiPUXNzI
- djsumdog 8y ago
  That's absolutely insane.

craigsmansion 8y ago

To illustrate: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sed/doc/news/flash/22221/SYN_OJ_March%20II_STR%20V2_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sed/doc/news/flash/22221/SYN_O... If I read the document correctly, the second column, 12:30 to 14:30, and 17:00 to 18:15 are all votes (with A8-0245/2018 VOSS being the topical one). Much as we collectively like to pore over and focus on the specific things that matter to us, it's not like they "had one job" that particular session.

ghostDancer 8y ago

It's their job, they are really well paid for it.They messed it up(I'm being gentle) but they won't get any consequence for it but the rest of the EU will. They should be paying attention, they should resign immediately for incompetence.

dagw 8y ago
Yes, this is a monumental cock up, and yes people fucked up. But it's hardly the first time it happens. Perhaps instead of just blaming the users (and I have no problem with also blaming the users in this case) we should also look at the underlying systemic issues that keep causing this to happen.
- ghostDancer 8y ago
  Absolutely agree, part of the problem is the way they do those things. It should be more clear what they are voting for, how they vote, and they should pay more attention, and that's the reason the vote can't be changed afterwards.