6 ms·

If we had a culture where killing people with your car, even accidentally, was viewed as similar to killing people with [other implement, gun, etc.] even accide

If we had a culture where killing people with your car, even accidentally, was viewed as similar to killing people with [other implement, gun, etc.] even accidentally, this wouldn't be necessary. Imagine it - person wants to go bird hunting, and the local school is great hunting grounds. A kid gets killed by some stray buckshot, and they get a fine and increased insurance costs. But we let people operate deadly devices right by streets (you know, the things made for walking until ~100 years ago), schools, parks, etc. and _even when their irresponsibility kills people_ the punishments are tiny. The only exception seems to be alcohol - but just being an idiot driver is fine. I strongly dislike the privacy implications and nanny state here. But not as much as I dislike ~60,000 dead people a year. Besides, if you carry a phone (or licence place for that matter) you've sacrificed all your privacy anyway. And really, it's more deaths than that, due to excess pollution (both air pollution and sound pollution).

hamandcheese 8y ago
There aren’t many ways that I can think of, aside from driving, that you can kill someone accidentally. Accidentally shoot someone? That’s almost certainly negligence, not really an accident. With cars, there are accidents. There’s also a whole lot of negligence. But because accidents do happen it’s difficult/impossible to prove negligence in most cases.
de_watcher 8y ago
Bird hunting and alcohol examples don't work because they have that "recreational" aspect of the activity. That is killing innocent birds and using psychedelic substances on yourself. Cars to me personally are more like a some strange kind of war: you're mildly forced to take that gun and go into a stressful environment every day.
close04 8y ago
> A kid gets killed by some stray buckshot, and they get a fine and increased insurance costs Killing someone in a car accident where you're to blame will result in a suspended prison sentence at the very least. It's called vehicular manslaughter unless you were obeying the laws and what happened was not intentional or reasonably preventable. Like if someone falls out of a tree under your wheels. So the comparison doesn't stand.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  Drivers are rarely held to blame, though. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-t...
  - close04 8y ago
    This doesn't seem to be my experience in most of Europe. Actually in some countries the driver might even be held responsible for cases when someone jumps in traffic from between cars parked on the side of a road. Edit, from the article: > there is something undeniably screwy about a justice system that makes it de facto legal to kill people, even when it is clearly your fault, as long you’re driving a car and the victim is on a bike and you’re not obviously drunk and don’t flee the scene If true it's actually shocking that any civilized country would have this system.
    - CalRobert 8y ago
      I'd be curious where you are. In Ireland the legal system seems pretty accepting of dangerous drivers.
    - stevenwoo 8y ago
      A study in Australia found a sizeable percentage of car drivers do not believe cyclists to be full human beings. https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/science/2019/03/27/australian-study-some-car-drivers-say-bikers-aren-completely-human/pnZ779ml6nY53bduYwx8rI/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/science/2019/03/27/australi...
      - waste_monk 8y ago
        As an Australian, I can confirm this. It's not necessarily their fault, but cyclists are extremely irritating for drivers, and an outright danger in some cases. Due to our road designs being mostly car-centric and our laws, it is hard to share the road with them. We are required to give 1 metre clearance when driving at < 60km/h, and 1.5m at 60km/h or over. If it is no other lane available and we cannot cross the dividing line due to oncoming traffic, we are forced to reduce our speed to that of the cyclist (which often means halving it or more) until we can overtake them safely. The government is attempting to retrofit bike lanes, but this does not remove the requirement to give space, and the lanes are co-located with parking spaces, which forces cyclists to move back onto the roads. This also leads to a lot of mirrors being damaged, mostly accidental but some cyclists brag about damaging cars that regularly park in the same place and block bike lanes. This leads to a lot of resentment from car owners. As an aside, cyclists are also allowed on our footpaths, and this has led to quite a lot of pedestrians being injured by cyclists colliding with them at speed. I could go on about this at length, but the point is that there is a considerable amount of frustration, resentment, and anger towards cyclists. One of the major bones of contention is the government refusing to require the registration of bicycles for road use (number plate) as it would discourage bicycle use, which would be at odds with the government promoting it for health benefits. But I know multiple people who've been injured or had there cars side-swiped by cyclists, and have no recourse due to being unable to identify them for a police report.
zahrc 8y ago
Negligent homicide is a thing in Germany and mostly used in street traffic. It is sent with up to 5 years. Two street racers have been sentenced with murder now, cause they have killed someone in a race.

hamandcheese 8y ago

There aren’t many ways that I can think of, aside from driving, that you can kill someone accidentally. Accidentally shoot someone? That’s almost certainly negligence, not really an accident. With cars, there are accidents. There’s also a whole lot of negligence. But because accidents do happen it’s difficult/impossible to prove negligence in most cases.

de_watcher 8y ago

Bird hunting and alcohol examples don't work because they have that "recreational" aspect of the activity. That is killing innocent birds and using psychedelic substances on yourself. Cars to me personally are more like a some strange kind of war: you're mildly forced to take that gun and go into a stressful environment every day.

close04 8y ago

> A kid gets killed by some stray buckshot, and they get a fine and increased insurance costs Killing someone in a car accident where you're to blame will result in a suspended prison sentence at the very least. It's called vehicular manslaughter unless you were obeying the laws and what happened was not intentional or reasonably preventable. Like if someone falls out of a tree under your wheels. So the comparison doesn't stand.

CalRobert 8y ago
Drivers are rarely held to blame, though. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-t...
- close04 8y ago
  This doesn't seem to be my experience in most of Europe. Actually in some countries the driver might even be held responsible for cases when someone jumps in traffic from between cars parked on the side of a road. Edit, from the article: > there is something undeniably screwy about a justice system that makes it de facto legal to kill people, even when it is clearly your fault, as long you’re driving a car and the victim is on a bike and you’re not obviously drunk and don’t flee the scene If true it's actually shocking that any civilized country would have this system.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    I'd be curious where you are. In Ireland the legal system seems pretty accepting of dangerous drivers.
  - stevenwoo 8y ago
    A study in Australia found a sizeable percentage of car drivers do not believe cyclists to be full human beings. https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/science/2019/03/27/australian-study-some-car-drivers-say-bikers-aren-completely-human/pnZ779ml6nY53bduYwx8rI/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/science/2019/03/27/australi...
    - waste_monk 8y ago
      As an Australian, I can confirm this. It's not necessarily their fault, but cyclists are extremely irritating for drivers, and an outright danger in some cases. Due to our road designs being mostly car-centric and our laws, it is hard to share the road with them. We are required to give 1 metre clearance when driving at < 60km/h, and 1.5m at 60km/h or over. If it is no other lane available and we cannot cross the dividing line due to oncoming traffic, we are forced to reduce our speed to that of the cyclist (which often means halving it or more) until we can overtake them safely. The government is attempting to retrofit bike lanes, but this does not remove the requirement to give space, and the lanes are co-located with parking spaces, which forces cyclists to move back onto the roads. This also leads to a lot of mirrors being damaged, mostly accidental but some cyclists brag about damaging cars that regularly park in the same place and block bike lanes. This leads to a lot of resentment from car owners. As an aside, cyclists are also allowed on our footpaths, and this has led to quite a lot of pedestrians being injured by cyclists colliding with them at speed. I could go on about this at length, but the point is that there is a considerable amount of frustration, resentment, and anger towards cyclists. One of the major bones of contention is the government refusing to require the registration of bicycles for road use (number plate) as it would discourage bicycle use, which would be at odds with the government promoting it for health benefits. But I know multiple people who've been injured or had there cars side-swiped by cyclists, and have no recourse due to being unable to identify them for a police report.

zahrc 8y ago

Negligent homicide is a thing in Germany and mostly used in street traffic. It is sent with up to 5 years. Two street racers have been sentenced with murder now, cause they have killed someone in a race.