4 ms·

Ask HN: Datalog as the only language for web programming, logic and database

21 points by truth_seeker 8y ago

Can Datalog be used as the only language which we can use for writing server-side web application, complex domain business logic and database querying? Are there any efforts made in this direction.

westurner 8y ago
To quote myself from a post the other day https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19407170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19407170 : > PyDatalog does Datalog (which is ~Prolog, but similar and very capable) logic programming with SQLAlchemy (and database indexes) and apparently NoSQL support. https://sites.google.com/site/pydatalog/ https://sites.google.com/site/pydatalog/ > Datalog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datalog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datalog > ... TBH, IDK about logic programming and bad facts. Resilience to incorrect and incredible information is - I suppose - a desirable feature of any learning system that reevaluates its learnings as additional and contradictory information makes its way into the datastores. I'm not sure that Datalog is really necessary for most CRUD operations; SQLAlchemy and the SQLAlchemy ORM are generally sufficient for standard database querying CRUD.
usgroup 8y ago
Well, if that's what you want just use Prolog; everything you need is there including a huge number of libraries and a web application framework. Although I personally don't understand why anyone would want to do this ... If you actually try using Prolog or Datalog, it becomes relatively obvious that it makes a very specific set of things easier at the cost of making everything else harder.
- truth_seeker 8y ago
  I want to do this to have only One High level declarative language to cover all areas to avoid impedance mismatch across all boundaries involved in full stack programming so that learning curve can also get reduced. Sticking to one language increases productivity as it encapsulates many underlying lower level details which I must not be aware of to get productive. In order to get more productive, I seek a language which is more about WHAT to get done (declarative) than HOW to get done (imperative). The parser, interpreter and JIT can hide away all the best practices which otherwise needs careful crafty knowledge, lower-level optimization, concurrency, data persistence and system level interfacing details. I know to a certain extent it sounds like daydreaming but its awesome abstraction to have. :) I prefer Datalog over Prolog for a simple reason that Datalog is more declarative and program termination is certain.
  - petra 8y ago
    Have you looked at low-code development tools ?
    - truth_seeker 8y ago
      Yes, the commercial ones. Mendix, Salesforce etc. But I want a solution which is open source and extensible.
  - networked 8y ago
    Not what you asked for, nor is it ready to use, but Aquameta may be interesting to you considering your high-level goal: https://github.com/aquametalabs/aquameta https://github.com/aquametalabs/aquameta.
    - truth_seeker 8y ago
      Wow. Thanks for the link. I think might be okay with SQL instead of Datalog. Besides that I love Postgres.
slifin 8y ago
Fulcro, Pathom, EQL and Datomic Is full stack datalog as far as I'm aware Not tried any of them yet but actively trying these are some tough things to learn
- slifin 8y ago
  Oh I should mention http://www.hyperfiddle.net http://www.hyperfiddle.net is a realisation of this kind of stack
  - dustingetz 8y ago
    Thanks for the mention - Yes, "datalog" for "everything" is the core hypothesis we are testing with Hyperfiddle. "Datalog" we've interpreted as Datomic Query and Transaction DSL, which is basically exactly what you need for automatic tables and forms – both read side and write – and not an inch more or less. Very small amounts of Clojure are necessary to glue it all together. React.js view layer progressive enhancement is completely optional, so that doesn't count. There is a small data model for routing (hyperlinks, like the web) and Clojure's namespaced keywords turn out to be very important as well. Maturity – today, we think Hyperfiddle is amazing at administration dashboards, you can crank them out really fast – basically about as fast as you can think.
- truth_seeker 8y ago
  Thanks. Pathom and EQL looks cool.
alexmingoia 8y ago
Not anything I’d want to use. The closest is prolog. But at a higher level this is what Eve attempted to do. Eve was built using the semantics of Dedalus which is built from datalog. I highly recommend watching Peter Alvaro’s Strangeloop talk about creating Dedalus - it’s exactly the same train of thought you’re onto. https://youtu.be/R2Aa4PivG0g https://youtu.be/R2Aa4PivG0g
- truth_seeker 8y ago
  Thanks :) Dedalus and Bloom language looks pretty neat. http://www.neilconway.org/docs/dedalus_dl2.pdf http://www.neilconway.org/docs/dedalus_dl2.pdf I wonder why anyone hasn't put significant effort in it and make it mainstream.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
nextos 8y ago
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Logicblox yet [1,2] [1] https://developer.logicblox.com/ https://developer.logicblox.com/ [2] https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/dan.olteanu/papers/logicblox-sigmod15.pdf https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/dan.olteanu/papers/logicblox-sigmod1...

21 points by truth_seeker 8y ago

Can Datalog be used as the only language which we can use for writing server-side web application, complex domain business logic and database querying? Are there any efforts made in this direction.

westurner 8y ago

To quote myself from a post the other day https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19407170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19407170 : > PyDatalog does Datalog (which is ~Prolog, but similar and very capable) logic programming with SQLAlchemy (and database indexes) and apparently NoSQL support. https://sites.google.com/site/pydatalog/ https://sites.google.com/site/pydatalog/ > Datalog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datalog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datalog > ... TBH, IDK about logic programming and bad facts. Resilience to incorrect and incredible information is - I suppose - a desirable feature of any learning system that reevaluates its learnings as additional and contradictory information makes its way into the datastores. I'm not sure that Datalog is really necessary for most CRUD operations; SQLAlchemy and the SQLAlchemy ORM are generally sufficient for standard database querying CRUD.

usgroup 8y ago

Well, if that's what you want just use Prolog; everything you need is there including a huge number of libraries and a web application framework. Although I personally don't understand why anyone would want to do this ... If you actually try using Prolog or Datalog, it becomes relatively obvious that it makes a very specific set of things easier at the cost of making everything else harder.

truth_seeker 8y ago
I want to do this to have only One High level declarative language to cover all areas to avoid impedance mismatch across all boundaries involved in full stack programming so that learning curve can also get reduced. Sticking to one language increases productivity as it encapsulates many underlying lower level details which I must not be aware of to get productive. In order to get more productive, I seek a language which is more about WHAT to get done (declarative) than HOW to get done (imperative). The parser, interpreter and JIT can hide away all the best practices which otherwise needs careful crafty knowledge, lower-level optimization, concurrency, data persistence and system level interfacing details. I know to a certain extent it sounds like daydreaming but its awesome abstraction to have. :) I prefer Datalog over Prolog for a simple reason that Datalog is more declarative and program termination is certain.
- petra 8y ago
  Have you looked at low-code development tools ?
  - truth_seeker 8y ago
    Yes, the commercial ones. Mendix, Salesforce etc. But I want a solution which is open source and extensible.
- networked 8y ago
  Not what you asked for, nor is it ready to use, but Aquameta may be interesting to you considering your high-level goal: https://github.com/aquametalabs/aquameta https://github.com/aquametalabs/aquameta.
  - truth_seeker 8y ago
    Wow. Thanks for the link. I think might be okay with SQL instead of Datalog. Besides that I love Postgres.

slifin 8y ago

Fulcro, Pathom, EQL and Datomic Is full stack datalog as far as I'm aware Not tried any of them yet but actively trying these are some tough things to learn

slifin 8y ago
Oh I should mention http://www.hyperfiddle.net http://www.hyperfiddle.net is a realisation of this kind of stack
- dustingetz 8y ago
  Thanks for the mention - Yes, "datalog" for "everything" is the core hypothesis we are testing with Hyperfiddle. "Datalog" we've interpreted as Datomic Query and Transaction DSL, which is basically exactly what you need for automatic tables and forms – both read side and write – and not an inch more or less. Very small amounts of Clojure are necessary to glue it all together. React.js view layer progressive enhancement is completely optional, so that doesn't count. There is a small data model for routing (hyperlinks, like the web) and Clojure's namespaced keywords turn out to be very important as well. Maturity – today, we think Hyperfiddle is amazing at administration dashboards, you can crank them out really fast – basically about as fast as you can think.
truth_seeker 8y ago
Thanks. Pathom and EQL looks cool.

alexmingoia 8y ago

Not anything I’d want to use. The closest is prolog. But at a higher level this is what Eve attempted to do. Eve was built using the semantics of Dedalus which is built from datalog. I highly recommend watching Peter Alvaro’s Strangeloop talk about creating Dedalus - it’s exactly the same train of thought you’re onto. https://youtu.be/R2Aa4PivG0g https://youtu.be/R2Aa4PivG0g

truth_seeker 8y ago
Thanks :) Dedalus and Bloom language looks pretty neat. http://www.neilconway.org/docs/dedalus_dl2.pdf http://www.neilconway.org/docs/dedalus_dl2.pdf I wonder why anyone hasn't put significant effort in it and make it mainstream.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

nextos 8y ago

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Logicblox yet [1,2] [1] https://developer.logicblox.com/ https://developer.logicblox.com/ [2] https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/dan.olteanu/papers/logicblox-sigmod15.pdf https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/dan.olteanu/papers/logicblox-sigmod1...