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OP and Inkstone editor here. I think you raised a really, really interesting point. One thing I think many people overlook in China's social credit system is i

OP and Inkstone editor here. I think you raised a really, really interesting point. One thing I think many people overlook in China's social credit system is its stated goal – to create a system that rewards good behavior and punishes bad behavior – and whether this system can really tackle self-destructive behavior you describe, like debt. And what's going to happen to people who're entering a debt spiral, and are as a result further punished by the system? Does the idea of social credit mean these people are simply abandoned?

dis-sys 8y ago
> And what's going to happen to people who're entering a debt spiral, and are as a result further punished by the system? please stop spreading false info. people on that "laolai" list are those who intentionally refuse to pay their debt when they have the resources to do so. as also explicitly mentioned in your own article, they are punished to the extent of being inconvenience to do certain things, e.g. in your described case, they can still ride a train just not the high speed one.
- alanwong 8y ago
  The point is, as demonstrated in the article, high speed train isn’t always a luxury. And the punishment can have the opposite effect of making people to pay their debts.
  - dis-sys 8y ago
    You are defending those offenders with a passion by completely ignoring the real victims here. When those "laolai" refuse to pay their debts when they have the resources to do so, rather than defending for those "laolai", how about show some decency by thinking about the real life situations of the actual victims who couldn't get their money back from those "laolai" even after court orders? With 1.4 billion people, surely you can dig up some "opposite effect", but again - how about look at the vast majority of those real victims here? When someone owes you money and the court order says they should pay you back, yet they choose to completely ignore that. It is just shockingly unbelievable that you choose to defend such offenders because they now can't ride high speed rail!
    - _bxg1 8y ago
      At least in America, the vast majority of the time, creditors are huge companies and debtors are individuals who happened to fall on hard times or make financial decisions that didn't pan out. Therefore it's much, much worse when a debtor is unjustly punished than when a creditor unjustly goes unpaid. It's the difference between completely ruining an individual's life, and removing a meaninglessly small amount of money from the pockets of rich people who will remain rich regardless. Are creditors in China commonly non-rich individuals? Are micro-loans a significant portion of what's being talked about here? I'm asking this as a serious question.
      - dis-sys 8y ago
        > Are creditors in China commonly non-rich individuals? Are micro-loans a significant portion of what's being talked about here? I'm asking this as a serious question. From what I saw/met, most of those debts happened between average individuals. That is how the list end up having millions of cases. I randomly checked a few cases on that list, most of time, the amount of debts are a few thousand USD. It is not some micro-loans for average guys on streets, it is close to one year of their wage.
  - powerapple 8y ago
    On the contrary, the system works really well. Most people pay off their debts with money come magically when they found out they couldn't fly.
    - alanwong 8y ago
      Fair enough.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  > those who intentionally refuse to pay their debt when they have the resources to do so Having resources and having resources to spare for paying creditors are two different things. You can't hope to pay off your debt long-term if you don't buy food in the meantime. That's an extreme example, but the same principle applies to clothes for interviews, transportation to business opportunities, and, yes, possibly high-speed rail travel. An individual can't pour every yuan they get into paying off debt, or they'll end up in poverty (or worse) and their debt will have no chance of ever getting paid. Everybody loses in that scenario.

dis-sys 8y ago

> And what's going to happen to people who're entering a debt spiral, and are as a result further punished by the system? please stop spreading false info. people on that "laolai" list are those who intentionally refuse to pay their debt when they have the resources to do so. as also explicitly mentioned in your own article, they are punished to the extent of being inconvenience to do certain things, e.g. in your described case, they can still ride a train just not the high speed one.

alanwong 8y ago
The point is, as demonstrated in the article, high speed train isn’t always a luxury. And the punishment can have the opposite effect of making people to pay their debts.
- dis-sys 8y ago
  You are defending those offenders with a passion by completely ignoring the real victims here. When those "laolai" refuse to pay their debts when they have the resources to do so, rather than defending for those "laolai", how about show some decency by thinking about the real life situations of the actual victims who couldn't get their money back from those "laolai" even after court orders? With 1.4 billion people, surely you can dig up some "opposite effect", but again - how about look at the vast majority of those real victims here? When someone owes you money and the court order says they should pay you back, yet they choose to completely ignore that. It is just shockingly unbelievable that you choose to defend such offenders because they now can't ride high speed rail!
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    At least in America, the vast majority of the time, creditors are huge companies and debtors are individuals who happened to fall on hard times or make financial decisions that didn't pan out. Therefore it's much, much worse when a debtor is unjustly punished than when a creditor unjustly goes unpaid. It's the difference between completely ruining an individual's life, and removing a meaninglessly small amount of money from the pockets of rich people who will remain rich regardless. Are creditors in China commonly non-rich individuals? Are micro-loans a significant portion of what's being talked about here? I'm asking this as a serious question.
    - dis-sys 8y ago
      > Are creditors in China commonly non-rich individuals? Are micro-loans a significant portion of what's being talked about here? I'm asking this as a serious question. From what I saw/met, most of those debts happened between average individuals. That is how the list end up having millions of cases. I randomly checked a few cases on that list, most of time, the amount of debts are a few thousand USD. It is not some micro-loans for average guys on streets, it is close to one year of their wage.
- powerapple 8y ago
  On the contrary, the system works really well. Most people pay off their debts with money come magically when they found out they couldn't fly.
  - alanwong 8y ago
    Fair enough.
_bxg1 8y ago
> those who intentionally refuse to pay their debt when they have the resources to do so Having resources and having resources to spare for paying creditors are two different things. You can't hope to pay off your debt long-term if you don't buy food in the meantime. That's an extreme example, but the same principle applies to clothes for interviews, transportation to business opportunities, and, yes, possibly high-speed rail travel. An individual can't pour every yuan they get into paying off debt, or they'll end up in poverty (or worse) and their debt will have no chance of ever getting paid. Everybody loses in that scenario.