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Inkstone editor and OP here. This IS China's social credit system. Lists of discredited people, often published by Chinese courts, are the primary mechanism by

Inkstone editor and OP here. This IS China's social credit system. Lists of discredited people, often published by Chinese courts, are the primary mechanism by which punishment is meted out.

wjmao88 8y ago
They are only the same in the broad sense of a social credit system, but the two credits are not the same. The social credit score system is an actual scoring system based on your overall social activities, including both financial and non-financial (e.g. the rightfully dreaded political/religious activity). No nobody knows exactly how it works and no one I know in China actually knows their score or anything even qualitative about their score. The discredited list is just a yes or no list based on court judgement for your financial debt, nothing more and nothing less. It is a public list and there is a clear way to end up on it.
- alanwong 8y ago
  There is no nationwide social credit score system, and there's certainly no large-scale effort to score people based on their political and religious activity as part of China's social credit system. For more informed and nuanced understanding of what China's "social credit" is, I invite you to read Inkstone's earlier story: https://www.inkstonenews.com/society/chinas-social-credit-system-isnt-yet-dystopian-nightmare/article/3000749 https://www.inkstonenews.com/society/chinas-social-credit-sy... And a podcast featuring a scholar who's closely followed the development of the system, and whom we interviewed for the article above: https://chinalawandpolicy.com/2018/11/12/whats-the-t-on-chinas-social-credit-system-jeremy-daum-explains-part-1-of-2/ https://chinalawandpolicy.com/2018/11/12/whats-the-t-on-chin...
  - wjmao88 8y ago
    The Chinese government advertises that system as one based on all kinds of activity. Political/religious are just examples since those are usually the focal points in matters like these. The system is claimed to be backed by big data, and sure you can say there is no numerical score but come on.
    - jpatokal 8y ago
      Again, there is no one "system". The system discussed here, 失信人名单, has nothing to do with social networks, it's operated by the courts. The video discussed below goes into this in detail, discussing what does exist, what experiments there are, and where the researcher thinks China is heading. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18771384 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18771384
      - alanwong 8y ago
        Thanks for this. Alarmist reports of a Black Mirror style social credit system in China have really distorted many people's understanding of the reality of the system, which, to begin with, isn't just one thing.
  - dis-sys 8y ago
    what mentioned in your article has nothing to do with the social credit system. as already mentioned in your own article, it is all about the "laolai" list maintained by courts. This system has been there for over a decade or longer, way earlier the title-bait so called "social credit system". To give you a few examples - [1][2] are news articles discussing the exact same "laolai" list almost 10 years ago. [1] https://finance.qq.com/a/20101214/004357.htm https://finance.qq.com/a/20101214/004357.htm [2] http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/detail_2010_10/20/2846252_0.shtml http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/detail_2010_10/20/2846252_0.s...
    - alanwong 8y ago
      Debt-related blacklists have been around before China's cabinet announced its intention to set up a nation-wide social credit system by 2020, but they ARE part of the social credit system. They're not exclusionary.
      - oska 8y ago
        Just a remark from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight: I found your dogmatic refutations above using all caps IS & ARE not particularly confidence inspiring nor terribly professional. Would not have made this remark about an ordinary commenter but I would expect better from an editor.
        alanwong 8y ago
        Thanks for the feedback. I had intended the styling for emphasis, but I can imagine how it might not communicate well with some people. My refutations are based on clearly worded, non-ambiguous official documents characterizing court ordered blacklists as part of China's social credit system. Here's the Chinese Supreme People's Court's website. http://shixin.court.gov.cn/index.html http://shixin.court.gov.cn/index.html The statement front and center explains that the blacklists are promulgated "to promote the building of a social credit system." For a more comprehensive look at what China's social credit system is and what its components are, I recommend this site: https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/social-credit-documents/ https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/social-credit-documents...
  - concerned_user 8y ago
    Also I have stumbled on this talk video from a conference is seems some time ago: https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9904-the_social_credit_system https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9904-the_social_credit_system and speaker also says that there is no one system but rather a large amount of smaller local systems with different sets of rules being trialed in different areas. So it seems more like trial and error and the best picks live on.

Inkstone editor and OP here. This IS China's social credit system. Lists of discredited people, often published by Chinese courts, are the primary mechanism by which punishment is meted out.

wjmao88 8y ago

They are only the same in the broad sense of a social credit system, but the two credits are not the same. The social credit score system is an actual scoring system based on your overall social activities, including both financial and non-financial (e.g. the rightfully dreaded political/religious activity). No nobody knows exactly how it works and no one I know in China actually knows their score or anything even qualitative about their score. The discredited list is just a yes or no list based on court judgement for your financial debt, nothing more and nothing less. It is a public list and there is a clear way to end up on it.

alanwong 8y ago
There is no nationwide social credit score system, and there's certainly no large-scale effort to score people based on their political and religious activity as part of China's social credit system. For more informed and nuanced understanding of what China's "social credit" is, I invite you to read Inkstone's earlier story: https://www.inkstonenews.com/society/chinas-social-credit-system-isnt-yet-dystopian-nightmare/article/3000749 https://www.inkstonenews.com/society/chinas-social-credit-sy... And a podcast featuring a scholar who's closely followed the development of the system, and whom we interviewed for the article above: https://chinalawandpolicy.com/2018/11/12/whats-the-t-on-chinas-social-credit-system-jeremy-daum-explains-part-1-of-2/ https://chinalawandpolicy.com/2018/11/12/whats-the-t-on-chin...
- wjmao88 8y ago
  The Chinese government advertises that system as one based on all kinds of activity. Political/religious are just examples since those are usually the focal points in matters like these. The system is claimed to be backed by big data, and sure you can say there is no numerical score but come on.
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    Again, there is no one "system". The system discussed here, 失信人名单, has nothing to do with social networks, it's operated by the courts. The video discussed below goes into this in detail, discussing what does exist, what experiments there are, and where the researcher thinks China is heading. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18771384 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18771384
    - alanwong 8y ago
      Thanks for this. Alarmist reports of a Black Mirror style social credit system in China have really distorted many people's understanding of the reality of the system, which, to begin with, isn't just one thing.
- dis-sys 8y ago
  what mentioned in your article has nothing to do with the social credit system. as already mentioned in your own article, it is all about the "laolai" list maintained by courts. This system has been there for over a decade or longer, way earlier the title-bait so called "social credit system". To give you a few examples - [1][2] are news articles discussing the exact same "laolai" list almost 10 years ago. [1] https://finance.qq.com/a/20101214/004357.htm https://finance.qq.com/a/20101214/004357.htm [2] http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/detail_2010_10/20/2846252_0.shtml http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/detail_2010_10/20/2846252_0.s...
  - alanwong 8y ago
    Debt-related blacklists have been around before China's cabinet announced its intention to set up a nation-wide social credit system by 2020, but they ARE part of the social credit system. They're not exclusionary.
    - oska 8y ago
      Just a remark from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight: I found your dogmatic refutations above using all caps IS & ARE not particularly confidence inspiring nor terribly professional. Would not have made this remark about an ordinary commenter but I would expect better from an editor.
      - alanwong 8y ago
        Thanks for the feedback. I had intended the styling for emphasis, but I can imagine how it might not communicate well with some people. My refutations are based on clearly worded, non-ambiguous official documents characterizing court ordered blacklists as part of China's social credit system. Here's the Chinese Supreme People's Court's website. http://shixin.court.gov.cn/index.html http://shixin.court.gov.cn/index.html The statement front and center explains that the blacklists are promulgated "to promote the building of a social credit system." For a more comprehensive look at what China's social credit system is and what its components are, I recommend this site: https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/social-credit-documents/ https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/social-credit-documents...
- concerned_user 8y ago
  Also I have stumbled on this talk video from a conference is seems some time ago: https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9904-the_social_credit_system https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9904-the_social_credit_system and speaker also says that there is no one system but rather a large amount of smaller local systems with different sets of rules being trialed in different areas. So it seems more like trial and error and the best picks live on.