4 ms·

FWIW, Cub Scouts / Boy Scouts are a pretty great place to get those same skills and experiences. Great opportunity to get a well rounded childhood.

sanderjd 8y ago
I'm a fan of these sorts of programs as well, but adolescents also really really need unstructured time together.
- wtallis 8y ago
  A properly executed Boy Scout program[1] should give adolescents a lot of unstructured time and leave them with the sense that they spent a weekend hanging out with their friends having fun. It's only at the Cub Scout level where it's appropriate for adults to be planning and leading a highly structured weekend of activities. When I take my troop camping, even if there's a fixed plan for an activity during the day (eg. if we've hired a whitewater rafting outfitter for the day), by 4 or 5PM on Saturday we're back in camp and the scouts' time is their own from then until mid-morning Sunday when they need to be packed up and ready for the drive home. They're still loosely supervised by adults, but there's no adult telling them when to start cooking dinner or when to go to bed. [1] The program is officially no longer known as Boy Scouts in the US, now that it's starting to go co-ed.
  - PascLeRasc 8y ago
    In the Boy Scouts troop I was in, no one was allowed to spend time at the parents/adult leaders tent. There's several obvious reasons for this, but one is to force kids, especially those who have a parent volunteering, to spend time away from them and learn some independence. I think it was a great policy.
    - sanderjd 8y ago
      Yep, this is totally right and an important part of the program. But still not a substitute for spending unstructured time with peers. If nothing else, teenagers should be spending time with possible love interests, flirting, saying the wrong things, saying the right things, figuring out why which is which, that sort of thing. For the large majority of kids that wasn't going to happen at BSA events. Maybe that will change with the broadening to include girls, but I suspect that sort of stuff will be frowned on rather than encouraged; it's just not the goal of the program.
  - sanderjd 8y ago
    I agree with all of this and spent my youth as part of a really great troop that did lots of great youth-led events. It was a wonderful enriching experience that has had lasting value in my adult life. But it was not a replacement for all the time I spent hanging out shooting the shit with my friends. Both things were really important to me.
- zxv 8y ago
  For cub scout camp directors, the plan must include daily scheduled periods of 'down time' during which scouts can play on open fields or playgrounds. For a four hour/day camp, this might be 30 to 45 min in the middle of the schedule. There's also free time before and after opening and closing ceremonies. The same is generally advised for meetings. Before a meeting, it's best to give them some time to blow off steam before having them sit for any length of time for anything structured. Making things fun is the best first step toward not only engaging them as individuals, but getting them engaged with each other. So yea, essential and well recognized by experienced scout leaders
cududa 8y ago
Dunno, when I did cub scouts / Boy Scouts even 20 years ago it was basically glorified arts and crafts
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  By all accounts the experience varies enormously between troops. I’m sure someone who learned enough wilderness survival skills for it to be useful in their military career will pop up in the comments, and some more who suffered as you did.
  - mrj 8y ago
    Haha yeah. Camping was old hat to me when I went in the Marines. None of that stuff surprised me. One brutally cold night outside of Victorville we were supposed to dig in fighting holes but the ground was solid and nobody got more than a few inches deep despite hacking at it all day. We were going to be there all night. Next to me was a big pile of wood chips for some reason. Knowing this would keep me warm and off of the ground, I lined my hole with a few inches of chips, training be damned. I was sleeping soundly (and warmly) when the company was roused at 0300 to go back to base. Nobody else slept a wink except those close enough to me to be warned. Basically, the CO got cold so we went home. lol. I learned that survival training in the Scouts. Good times.
  - pram 8y ago
    Id imagine it can be good if you’re never exposed to camping/survival otherwise. I had to go through SERE for aircrew (which is in Spokane, WA) and that was the first time in my life I was ever out in the woods. It was such an insane shock and learning experience. I think there’s a lot of value being exposed to that stuff even if you have no desire to do it recreationally.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    When I did scouts many years ago, there was definitely a lot of variation by troop. Some, like the one I was in, had a lot of weekend camping/hiking, extended trips, summer camp, etc. and the weekly/biweekly meetings were mostly just organizing for those activities. Other troops, scouts was mostly just those meetings with games/arts/crafts/etc.
philpem 8y ago
They're great if you fit in with the group. If the group decides you're "different" in some way, you're going to get shunned, and shunned hard. Speaking from experience here. It works great for "normal" kids but for any kid even the slightest bit non-neurotypical, it's going to be absolute hell.
- brightball 8y ago
  I didn't really fit into the group when I was a kid, but in hindsight I still gained a lot from them (including experience learning to better fit into groups).
  - coldtea 8y ago
    That's part of it! People think there's supposed to be some total acceptance and peace and love. Society is not like this, family is not like this, even with your spouse, kids, or brothers/sisters you wont be like this. Being criticized, ostracized by some, shunned by others, also helps make someone learn to socialize (which includes conforming to a few norms, that's part of being into a society instead of alone in the jungle). And there are two other things too: 1) Everyone gets some of that treatment (even the popular jocks for example get talked about behind their backs as brainless or whatever). People that act like they are the only recipients, are too self-absorbed to see it. 2) Not everything someone brings or who their character is is good to begin with, just because its "theirs" or "original" etc. The group can have some pathologies itself, but it can help shape everyone to be better too.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    The thing is this: When you are shunned, you don't get to learn to fit into groups better. You are simply left out. No one picks you until adults step in to make sure you are included, and if you are lucky the adults aren't part of the shunning. Luckily for me, Girl Scouts was only somewhat bad one year. We moved, and then I hated the activities which focused around makeup and "girl stuff" instead of crafts and camping and things. My shunning was in school itself, and unfortunately the teachers didn't help at all.
  - 8y ago

sanderjd 8y ago

I'm a fan of these sorts of programs as well, but adolescents also really really need unstructured time together.

wtallis 8y ago
A properly executed Boy Scout program[1] should give adolescents a lot of unstructured time and leave them with the sense that they spent a weekend hanging out with their friends having fun. It's only at the Cub Scout level where it's appropriate for adults to be planning and leading a highly structured weekend of activities. When I take my troop camping, even if there's a fixed plan for an activity during the day (eg. if we've hired a whitewater rafting outfitter for the day), by 4 or 5PM on Saturday we're back in camp and the scouts' time is their own from then until mid-morning Sunday when they need to be packed up and ready for the drive home. They're still loosely supervised by adults, but there's no adult telling them when to start cooking dinner or when to go to bed. [1] The program is officially no longer known as Boy Scouts in the US, now that it's starting to go co-ed.
- PascLeRasc 8y ago
  In the Boy Scouts troop I was in, no one was allowed to spend time at the parents/adult leaders tent. There's several obvious reasons for this, but one is to force kids, especially those who have a parent volunteering, to spend time away from them and learn some independence. I think it was a great policy.
  - sanderjd 8y ago
    Yep, this is totally right and an important part of the program. But still not a substitute for spending unstructured time with peers. If nothing else, teenagers should be spending time with possible love interests, flirting, saying the wrong things, saying the right things, figuring out why which is which, that sort of thing. For the large majority of kids that wasn't going to happen at BSA events. Maybe that will change with the broadening to include girls, but I suspect that sort of stuff will be frowned on rather than encouraged; it's just not the goal of the program.
- sanderjd 8y ago
  I agree with all of this and spent my youth as part of a really great troop that did lots of great youth-led events. It was a wonderful enriching experience that has had lasting value in my adult life. But it was not a replacement for all the time I spent hanging out shooting the shit with my friends. Both things were really important to me.
zxv 8y ago
For cub scout camp directors, the plan must include daily scheduled periods of 'down time' during which scouts can play on open fields or playgrounds. For a four hour/day camp, this might be 30 to 45 min in the middle of the schedule. There's also free time before and after opening and closing ceremonies. The same is generally advised for meetings. Before a meeting, it's best to give them some time to blow off steam before having them sit for any length of time for anything structured. Making things fun is the best first step toward not only engaging them as individuals, but getting them engaged with each other. So yea, essential and well recognized by experienced scout leaders

cududa 8y ago

Dunno, when I did cub scouts / Boy Scouts even 20 years ago it was basically glorified arts and crafts

barry-cotter 8y ago
By all accounts the experience varies enormously between troops. I’m sure someone who learned enough wilderness survival skills for it to be useful in their military career will pop up in the comments, and some more who suffered as you did.
- mrj 8y ago
  Haha yeah. Camping was old hat to me when I went in the Marines. None of that stuff surprised me. One brutally cold night outside of Victorville we were supposed to dig in fighting holes but the ground was solid and nobody got more than a few inches deep despite hacking at it all day. We were going to be there all night. Next to me was a big pile of wood chips for some reason. Knowing this would keep me warm and off of the ground, I lined my hole with a few inches of chips, training be damned. I was sleeping soundly (and warmly) when the company was roused at 0300 to go back to base. Nobody else slept a wink except those close enough to me to be warned. Basically, the CO got cold so we went home. lol. I learned that survival training in the Scouts. Good times.
- pram 8y ago
  Id imagine it can be good if you’re never exposed to camping/survival otherwise. I had to go through SERE for aircrew (which is in Spokane, WA) and that was the first time in my life I was ever out in the woods. It was such an insane shock and learning experience. I think there’s a lot of value being exposed to that stuff even if you have no desire to do it recreationally.
- ghaff 8y ago
  When I did scouts many years ago, there was definitely a lot of variation by troop. Some, like the one I was in, had a lot of weekend camping/hiking, extended trips, summer camp, etc. and the weekly/biweekly meetings were mostly just organizing for those activities. Other troops, scouts was mostly just those meetings with games/arts/crafts/etc.

philpem 8y ago

They're great if you fit in with the group. If the group decides you're "different" in some way, you're going to get shunned, and shunned hard. Speaking from experience here. It works great for "normal" kids but for any kid even the slightest bit non-neurotypical, it's going to be absolute hell.

brightball 8y ago
I didn't really fit into the group when I was a kid, but in hindsight I still gained a lot from them (including experience learning to better fit into groups).
- coldtea 8y ago
  That's part of it! People think there's supposed to be some total acceptance and peace and love. Society is not like this, family is not like this, even with your spouse, kids, or brothers/sisters you wont be like this. Being criticized, ostracized by some, shunned by others, also helps make someone learn to socialize (which includes conforming to a few norms, that's part of being into a society instead of alone in the jungle). And there are two other things too: 1) Everyone gets some of that treatment (even the popular jocks for example get talked about behind their backs as brainless or whatever). People that act like they are the only recipients, are too self-absorbed to see it. 2) Not everything someone brings or who their character is is good to begin with, just because its "theirs" or "original" etc. The group can have some pathologies itself, but it can help shape everyone to be better too.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  The thing is this: When you are shunned, you don't get to learn to fit into groups better. You are simply left out. No one picks you until adults step in to make sure you are included, and if you are lucky the adults aren't part of the shunning. Luckily for me, Girl Scouts was only somewhat bad one year. We moved, and then I hated the activities which focused around makeup and "girl stuff" instead of crafts and camping and things. My shunning was in school itself, and unfortunately the teachers didn't help at all.
- 8y ago