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These discussions are pretty weird. It's China that is censoring the news here. But for some reason we're mainly blaming Apple for it? It's makes no sense. An

by jmull 8y ago

These discussions are pretty weird. It's China that is censoring the news here. But for some reason we're mainly blaming Apple for it? It's makes no sense. And what the heck does the API Apple uses to determine location have to do with it? If Apple had the choice, they would use no API to censor the news. Anyway, for the people who really are worried about censorship (I am) it's worth understanding and acknowledging what's actually going on here. This problem is not an Apple problem and if you try to treat it like one, that's actually worse than doing nothing at all since it draws attention away from the actual problem. (There are Apple problems, of course, but this isn't one of them.) This is a big China problem.

PostOnce 8y ago
Also known as the Nuremberg Defense. Apple is Just Following Orders™ after all. To say it another way, there are multiple parties doing multiple wrongs here.
- jurip 8y ago
  It's stretching the Nuremberg definition a bit when you accuse a company of it when they try to have their products follow the laws of the countries where they sell them. I'm sure there's a line in the sand somewhere there but refusing to distribute outlawed publications is surely not over it.
  - featherrust 8y ago
    The article is about iPhones for the US market, not about iPhones for the Chinese market.
xkcd-sucks 8y ago
Apple is famous for fighting anything which might associate the brand with a degraded user experience. So shipping an apple branded product which tacitly accepts censorship seems like tacit complicity, which is the most cynical type of complicity.
- DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
  There is no alternative option for them that doesn't involve just not selling in China. If they want to sell in China (a huge population of people who love to buy devices), then they have to play by the Chinese government's rules. It's not like they can just sneak around and hope the government doesn't notice, because China will not hesitate to ban the sale of legitimate Apple devices if they feel justified in doing so.
- titanix2 8y ago
  Apple ships products that conform to local regulations and this is absolutely normal. Do you think entreprises should choose which laws they comply to and which they don't? Good luck financing your state with that because I'm sure they'll all opt out of tax regulations...
  - int_19h 8y ago
    They shouldn't conform to local regulations that are contrary to their publicly stated company ideals. One way to do so is to not do business in countries where it's impossible to conform.
    - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
      > One way to do so is to not do business in countries where it's impossible to conform. Keep in mind that we're talking about China. If Apple pulls out, there's no shortage of Chinese companies that the Chinese government is buddy-buddy with who will happily go all-in on spying on consumers. Apple obeys Chinese regulations, but it's reasonable to assume (based on their actions in the US) that they don't enjoy it. Which means they're not going to go out of their way to give the Chinese government more than they need to. This is potentially in contrast with the Chinese technology companies who would be more than happy to provide extra data to the government. Apple is able to hold their position in China only because they comply with regulations, but in so doing they provide consumers with a better option than going through any of the Chinese government-friendly companies. Yes, it sucks that they have to comply, but in a scenario where Apple either chooses or is forced to withdraw from China it is the Chinese consumers who will suffer the most, because they will be left with only government-friendly alternatives.
sneak 8y ago
You may wish to re-read the article. Apple is going above and beyond China’s legal requirements in censorship, censoring news voluntarily in their News app on US phones with US SIM cards when used in China-phones that can access normal news websites without censorship just fine outside of the News app. This is a behavior specific to Apple’s new product, which has not launched for Chinese users at all yet.
- flixic 8y ago
  Devil’s advocate here, but I think geolocation is more important than SIM card or place of purchase. China doesn’t want certain information within its borders. If you could “smuggle” it via outside phone + outside SIM, it makes all protections worthless. Same with Netflix: even though I pay with credit card from Europe, when physically (IP-wise) in US I can see the US catalog.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Except that's not how it works in reality (and the article covers this): if I go to China with my T-Mobile US SIM card in my phone, and connect to a Chinese telecom network, I will still be able to access Facebook, Google, and any news site, regardless of whether or not the Great Firewall would usually block it for Chinese citizens with Chinese SIM cards. But Apple is censoring content on US phones with US SIM cards while they're physically located inside China, which is a huge departure from established practice, and isn't actually useful since the same non-Chinese phone can access all the same news sites via Safari.
    - jmull 8y ago
      Just to note, the uneven implementation and enforcement of their censorship laws is still a China problem, not an Apple problem. The idea that Apple is controlling things here does not make sense. Obviously, if Apple had the choice they wouldn't censor Apple News at all.
      - sneak 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
return0 8y ago
(it is widely believed that we cant change China's behaviour)

by jmull 8y ago

PostOnce 8y ago

Also known as the Nuremberg Defense. Apple is Just Following Orders™ after all. To say it another way, there are multiple parties doing multiple wrongs here.

jurip 8y ago
It's stretching the Nuremberg definition a bit when you accuse a company of it when they try to have their products follow the laws of the countries where they sell them. I'm sure there's a line in the sand somewhere there but refusing to distribute outlawed publications is surely not over it.
- featherrust 8y ago
  The article is about iPhones for the US market, not about iPhones for the Chinese market.

xkcd-sucks 8y ago

Apple is famous for fighting anything which might associate the brand with a degraded user experience. So shipping an apple branded product which tacitly accepts censorship seems like tacit complicity, which is the most cynical type of complicity.

DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
There is no alternative option for them that doesn't involve just not selling in China. If they want to sell in China (a huge population of people who love to buy devices), then they have to play by the Chinese government's rules. It's not like they can just sneak around and hope the government doesn't notice, because China will not hesitate to ban the sale of legitimate Apple devices if they feel justified in doing so.
titanix2 8y ago
Apple ships products that conform to local regulations and this is absolutely normal. Do you think entreprises should choose which laws they comply to and which they don't? Good luck financing your state with that because I'm sure they'll all opt out of tax regulations...
- int_19h 8y ago
  They shouldn't conform to local regulations that are contrary to their publicly stated company ideals. One way to do so is to not do business in countries where it's impossible to conform.
  - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
    > One way to do so is to not do business in countries where it's impossible to conform. Keep in mind that we're talking about China. If Apple pulls out, there's no shortage of Chinese companies that the Chinese government is buddy-buddy with who will happily go all-in on spying on consumers. Apple obeys Chinese regulations, but it's reasonable to assume (based on their actions in the US) that they don't enjoy it. Which means they're not going to go out of their way to give the Chinese government more than they need to. This is potentially in contrast with the Chinese technology companies who would be more than happy to provide extra data to the government. Apple is able to hold their position in China only because they comply with regulations, but in so doing they provide consumers with a better option than going through any of the Chinese government-friendly companies. Yes, it sucks that they have to comply, but in a scenario where Apple either chooses or is forced to withdraw from China it is the Chinese consumers who will suffer the most, because they will be left with only government-friendly alternatives.

sneak 8y ago

You may wish to re-read the article. Apple is going above and beyond China’s legal requirements in censorship, censoring news voluntarily in their News app on US phones with US SIM cards when used in China-phones that can access normal news websites without censorship just fine outside of the News app. This is a behavior specific to Apple’s new product, which has not launched for Chinese users at all yet.

flixic 8y ago
Devil’s advocate here, but I think geolocation is more important than SIM card or place of purchase. China doesn’t want certain information within its borders. If you could “smuggle” it via outside phone + outside SIM, it makes all protections worthless. Same with Netflix: even though I pay with credit card from Europe, when physically (IP-wise) in US I can see the US catalog.
- kelnos 8y ago
  Except that's not how it works in reality (and the article covers this): if I go to China with my T-Mobile US SIM card in my phone, and connect to a Chinese telecom network, I will still be able to access Facebook, Google, and any news site, regardless of whether or not the Great Firewall would usually block it for Chinese citizens with Chinese SIM cards. But Apple is censoring content on US phones with US SIM cards while they're physically located inside China, which is a huge departure from established practice, and isn't actually useful since the same non-Chinese phone can access all the same news sites via Safari.
  - jmull 8y ago
    Just to note, the uneven implementation and enforcement of their censorship laws is still a China problem, not an Apple problem. The idea that Apple is controlling things here does not make sense. Obviously, if Apple had the choice they wouldn't censor Apple News at all.
    - sneak 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

return0 8y ago

(it is widely believed that we cant change China's behaviour)