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Driving being a privilege, not a right, is only awkward in the US because of how absurdly car dominant it is. Being unable to drive in many other developed coun

Driving being a privilege, not a right, is only awkward in the US because of how absurdly car dominant it is. Being unable to drive in many other developed countries is barely an issue for most people.

vonmoltke 8y ago
> Being unable to drive in many other developed countries is barely an issue for most people. I don't think I agree with the "most" in that statement, at least in combination with "barely an issue".
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  To my knowledge, other developed countries where driving seems really necessary for most people are Canada and Australia, maybe NZ? Admittedly I'm far from an expert in this, but I live in Germany now, have visited a bunch of countries in Europe, plus Japan, and that's certainly the impression I get. Right now our family of 3 living in a sleepy part of Munich gets by fine without a car, and we've visited lots of little suburbs and towns in Germany that are still highly walkable/bikable, with decent transit connections. Not that having a car wouldn't be a big convenience bonus for us sometimes, but it doesn't feel critical at all.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    "8 % of the EU workforce commutes to work in a different region" (NUTS 2 defined region: different province, city, etc).
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      And this has what, exactly, to do with my comment?
      - coldtea 8y ago
        Wasn't your comment all about how driving is not that needed in Europe? Try getting to a different province/city etc, easily 30-100km away or more on "public transit". Even where the connections are there (and not like a couple of buses each day), it's neither fast nor pleasant enough to make driving "unneeded".
        jen20 8y ago
        In many parts of Europe that is incredibly straightforward - much more so than driving or parking.
        TulliusCicero 8y ago
        I said it's barely an issue for most people. Not barely an issue for everyone. > Try getting to a different province/city etc, easily 30-100km away or more on "public transit". I seriously considered commuting from Augsburg to Munich by train. Some of my co-workers do this. It's actually not that bad, train ride is about half an hour for 50km. Faster than driving, that's for sure.
        concerned_user 8y ago
        I live in Europe, driving is not needed. You hop on a train or on a bus, although if you have work 100 km away you wouls have some arrangements to live there for some part of the week commuting 100 km daily is unpleasant. Unless your destination is in some rural village that is not reachable by train/bus, like closest bus stop is 5 km away you don't need a car, it is more convenient sure but not essential. I have colleagues at work that are from small towns 100+km they rent a flat in the city here and go home on weekends, by train or car.
    - buzer 8y ago
      I, like about 50% of people living in Vantaa, commute to different city for work. I'm not sure how many of them actually use public transport for commute, but as overall public transport usage is around 50%. I don't think there's big difference between the usage between working within Vantaa or going to different city as that city is usually Helsinki or Espoo. Commute wise they are all part of same region while legally they are different cities. I don't think that's extremely uncommon arrangement in some larger cities in Europe.
coldtea 8y ago
Well, what if you do one of jobs that require you to drive? Bus drivers, taxi drivers, truckers, delivery people, etc, are not lesser citizens... Plus, who said people in the developed countries don't commute, or that even if they have public transport, having to and waste extra hour or hours in many cases (to wait at stops and to change buses or subway lines, etc), is small matter in the extra effort, free time, and health impact on the person doing it compared to being able to just drive there? Not everybody in Europe lives in Amsterdam or some such city, nicely close to walking distance or a single public transit line to work.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  > Well, what if you do one of jobs that require you to drive? Don't do the thing that gets your license revoked? And if it happens, get a different job? > Plus, who said people in the developed countries don't commute, or that even if they have public transport, having to and waste extra hour or hours in many cases (to wait at stops and to change buses or subway lines, etc), is small matter in the extra effort, free time, and health impact on the person doing it compared to being able to just drive there? Well, if it's just convenience, then that seems to fit the definition of privilege, no? > Not everybody in Europe lives in Amsterdam or some such city, nicely close to walking distance or a single public transit line to work. This is a ridiculous strawman. You don't need to live in a major world city to have effective non-driving commute options around.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Don't do the thing that gets your license revoked? And if it happens, get a different job? There are some comments that make me think "I want to see all these things happen to that person, to see how casually they'll dismiss the problem then, and if they'll ever figure out what empathy means". Really makes you wish those people losing their car and their job, because they fell behind on some student debt payment, and being unable to rise out of it. Add perhaps a few problems real people in those situations (which for them are dismissed as mere "personal failings) have, like spouses or parents or kids to take care of, some personal sickness, and so on. Maybe experiencing real life will help do with the smugness? >Well, if it's just convenience, then that seems to fit the definition of privilege, no? Being able to laugh away the pain of people in such situations (because you never were close to that, or have safety nets all around) fits the definition of privilege better.

vonmoltke 8y ago

> Being unable to drive in many other developed countries is barely an issue for most people. I don't think I agree with the "most" in that statement, at least in combination with "barely an issue".

TulliusCicero 8y ago
To my knowledge, other developed countries where driving seems really necessary for most people are Canada and Australia, maybe NZ? Admittedly I'm far from an expert in this, but I live in Germany now, have visited a bunch of countries in Europe, plus Japan, and that's certainly the impression I get. Right now our family of 3 living in a sleepy part of Munich gets by fine without a car, and we've visited lots of little suburbs and towns in Germany that are still highly walkable/bikable, with decent transit connections. Not that having a car wouldn't be a big convenience bonus for us sometimes, but it doesn't feel critical at all.
- coldtea 8y ago
  "8 % of the EU workforce commutes to work in a different region" (NUTS 2 defined region: different province, city, etc).
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    And this has what, exactly, to do with my comment?
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Wasn't your comment all about how driving is not that needed in Europe? Try getting to a different province/city etc, easily 30-100km away or more on "public transit". Even where the connections are there (and not like a couple of buses each day), it's neither fast nor pleasant enough to make driving "unneeded".
      - jen20 8y ago
        In many parts of Europe that is incredibly straightforward - much more so than driving or parking.
      - TulliusCicero 8y ago
        I said it's barely an issue for most people. Not barely an issue for everyone. > Try getting to a different province/city etc, easily 30-100km away or more on "public transit". I seriously considered commuting from Augsburg to Munich by train. Some of my co-workers do this. It's actually not that bad, train ride is about half an hour for 50km. Faster than driving, that's for sure.
      - concerned_user 8y ago
        I live in Europe, driving is not needed. You hop on a train or on a bus, although if you have work 100 km away you wouls have some arrangements to live there for some part of the week commuting 100 km daily is unpleasant. Unless your destination is in some rural village that is not reachable by train/bus, like closest bus stop is 5 km away you don't need a car, it is more convenient sure but not essential. I have colleagues at work that are from small towns 100+km they rent a flat in the city here and go home on weekends, by train or car.
  - buzer 8y ago
    I, like about 50% of people living in Vantaa, commute to different city for work. I'm not sure how many of them actually use public transport for commute, but as overall public transport usage is around 50%. I don't think there's big difference between the usage between working within Vantaa or going to different city as that city is usually Helsinki or Espoo. Commute wise they are all part of same region while legally they are different cities. I don't think that's extremely uncommon arrangement in some larger cities in Europe.

coldtea 8y ago

Well, what if you do one of jobs that require you to drive? Bus drivers, taxi drivers, truckers, delivery people, etc, are not lesser citizens... Plus, who said people in the developed countries don't commute, or that even if they have public transport, having to and waste extra hour or hours in many cases (to wait at stops and to change buses or subway lines, etc), is small matter in the extra effort, free time, and health impact on the person doing it compared to being able to just drive there? Not everybody in Europe lives in Amsterdam or some such city, nicely close to walking distance or a single public transit line to work.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
> Well, what if you do one of jobs that require you to drive? Don't do the thing that gets your license revoked? And if it happens, get a different job? > Plus, who said people in the developed countries don't commute, or that even if they have public transport, having to and waste extra hour or hours in many cases (to wait at stops and to change buses or subway lines, etc), is small matter in the extra effort, free time, and health impact on the person doing it compared to being able to just drive there? Well, if it's just convenience, then that seems to fit the definition of privilege, no? > Not everybody in Europe lives in Amsterdam or some such city, nicely close to walking distance or a single public transit line to work. This is a ridiculous strawman. You don't need to live in a major world city to have effective non-driving commute options around.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Don't do the thing that gets your license revoked? And if it happens, get a different job? There are some comments that make me think "I want to see all these things happen to that person, to see how casually they'll dismiss the problem then, and if they'll ever figure out what empathy means". Really makes you wish those people losing their car and their job, because they fell behind on some student debt payment, and being unable to rise out of it. Add perhaps a few problems real people in those situations (which for them are dismissed as mere "personal failings) have, like spouses or parents or kids to take care of, some personal sickness, and so on. Maybe experiencing real life will help do with the smugness? >Well, if it's just convenience, then that seems to fit the definition of privilege, no? Being able to laugh away the pain of people in such situations (because you never were close to that, or have safety nets all around) fits the definition of privilege better.