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Another interesting idea: apparently, positive motivation (reward) works much better than negative motivation (punishment). Allegedly it's "scientifically prove

by tomp 8y ago

Another interesting idea: apparently, positive motivation (reward) works much better than negative motivation (punishment). Allegedly it's "scientifically proven" (for some definition of "scientifically") which I haven't yet taken the time to research, but I plan to. I've been thinking about how to apply this in two of the most important areas of interpersonal interaction in our lives, in our careers and in interpersonal relationships. We often discuss on HN why it's difficult in careers (conflicting interests, hard to measure results, under-specified goals, etc.). In relationships, I think the main difficulty is that we enter relationships with so many expectations (i.e. "my partner should love me and spend time with me and give me gifts" or similar) that these can't really be used for positive motivation, instead we interpret the absence of them as negative motivation. One idea I had, though, is to explicitly verbalise rewarding in addition to the actual reward (i.e. instead of just spending time with them, say "I really liked that you did X yesterday" and spend time with them).

snarf21 8y ago
It all really depends though. This speaks to concepts like the 5 love languages (time, words, acts, touch, gifts) but words mean nothing to me personally. Words are easy, show me instead. But each person has their own needs and bias.
el_cujo 8y ago
I know I'm being pedantic here, but in psychology, negative motivation is when you take away something averse as a reward for a certain behavior. Negative here relates to the fact you're negating or removing something to act as motivation, whereas if something is positive, you're adding something (like a treat for a dog). What a lot of people refer to as "negative motivation" is actually positive punishment because you are adding something aversive (like a spanking) in response to a behavior you want to decrease. It's important to keep this in mind when looking at scientific literature so that you know exactly what they're talking about.
- tomp 8y ago
  Ah, useful to know. So I guess what my post was about, was preffering to scale the rewards between positive and negative ends of the spectrum, instead of punishment.
ehsanu1 8y ago
Rewards can also backfire. I'm currently reading "Punished by Rewards", by Alfie Kohn, which spells out all the ways in which rewards are counterproductive. Interestingly enough, I found this book via Marshall Rosenberg's book on non-violent communication, in which Marshall urges us not to use rewards as a means to manipulate others (and not to use punishments for that purpose either of course).
- tomp 8y ago
  Interesting... Yeah, I didn't mean "manipulate", more to observe the behaviour that we would do naturally (e.g. things like praise, expressing anger, ignoring someone when we're dissatisfied with their behaviour, promotions, etc.) and shifting most of the "punishment"-type responses into "reward"-type responses. Can that (i.e. non-manipulative rewarding behaviour) still backfire? Probably, although I'm then not sure what the solution is... to influence reality and your own well-being, you have act, and even the most fail-safe behaviour (like not spending time with a person anymore) is described by the above framework (i.e. it's a type of punishment), and furthermore it's not always possible (e.g. with children, or if you want a job and a relationship, most people seem to).
  - ehsanu1 8y ago
    Using the word "manipulate" might carry too heavy a negative connotation than you might be used to ascribing to rewards, but if you strip the connotations from the word, it's clear that rewards expressly manipulate others. "Do this and I'll give you that" is explicitly a way of affecting others' actions by providing external motivation. It is an attempt to control others behaviors (this is meant plainly, not necessarily judging whether trying to exercise such control is bad). The intention behind the reward might not even be to control, but unfortunately that doesn't change that that it does do control even if inadvertently. Yes, according to Alfie Kohn, such rewards, even innocent seeming things like praise, can indeed backfire. Marshall Rosenberg had this question: When someone does something that you want them to do, what reason would you like for them doing that thing? Would you like them to do it purely due to the reward (or fear of the withdrawal of the reward, which is functionally a punishment)? Or would you like them to do it because they themselves see the value in it and are self-motivated? This is not to say that rewards have no place in life, just that they are a tool that should be carefully considered, and to understand that they will not solve most problems and may make things worse sometimes. The alternative to rewarding or punishing others involves working with them in a less coercive fashion. But that's hard, and I don't know that there's a ready answer for what exactly to do in each situation. NVC could help sometimes.

by tomp 8y ago

snarf21 8y ago

It all really depends though. This speaks to concepts like the 5 love languages (time, words, acts, touch, gifts) but words mean nothing to me personally. Words are easy, show me instead. But each person has their own needs and bias.

el_cujo 8y ago

I know I'm being pedantic here, but in psychology, negative motivation is when you take away something averse as a reward for a certain behavior. Negative here relates to the fact you're negating or removing something to act as motivation, whereas if something is positive, you're adding something (like a treat for a dog). What a lot of people refer to as "negative motivation" is actually positive punishment because you are adding something aversive (like a spanking) in response to a behavior you want to decrease. It's important to keep this in mind when looking at scientific literature so that you know exactly what they're talking about.

tomp 8y ago
Ah, useful to know. So I guess what my post was about, was preffering to scale the rewards between positive and negative ends of the spectrum, instead of punishment.

ehsanu1 8y ago

Rewards can also backfire. I'm currently reading "Punished by Rewards", by Alfie Kohn, which spells out all the ways in which rewards are counterproductive. Interestingly enough, I found this book via Marshall Rosenberg's book on non-violent communication, in which Marshall urges us not to use rewards as a means to manipulate others (and not to use punishments for that purpose either of course).

tomp 8y ago
Interesting... Yeah, I didn't mean "manipulate", more to observe the behaviour that we would do naturally (e.g. things like praise, expressing anger, ignoring someone when we're dissatisfied with their behaviour, promotions, etc.) and shifting most of the "punishment"-type responses into "reward"-type responses. Can that (i.e. non-manipulative rewarding behaviour) still backfire? Probably, although I'm then not sure what the solution is... to influence reality and your own well-being, you have act, and even the most fail-safe behaviour (like not spending time with a person anymore) is described by the above framework (i.e. it's a type of punishment), and furthermore it's not always possible (e.g. with children, or if you want a job and a relationship, most people seem to).
- ehsanu1 8y ago
  Using the word "manipulate" might carry too heavy a negative connotation than you might be used to ascribing to rewards, but if you strip the connotations from the word, it's clear that rewards expressly manipulate others. "Do this and I'll give you that" is explicitly a way of affecting others' actions by providing external motivation. It is an attempt to control others behaviors (this is meant plainly, not necessarily judging whether trying to exercise such control is bad). The intention behind the reward might not even be to control, but unfortunately that doesn't change that that it does do control even if inadvertently. Yes, according to Alfie Kohn, such rewards, even innocent seeming things like praise, can indeed backfire. Marshall Rosenberg had this question: When someone does something that you want them to do, what reason would you like for them doing that thing? Would you like them to do it purely due to the reward (or fear of the withdrawal of the reward, which is functionally a punishment)? Or would you like them to do it because they themselves see the value in it and are self-motivated? This is not to say that rewards have no place in life, just that they are a tool that should be carefully considered, and to understand that they will not solve most problems and may make things worse sometimes. The alternative to rewarding or punishing others involves working with them in a less coercive fashion. But that's hard, and I don't know that there's a ready answer for what exactly to do in each situation. NVC could help sometimes.