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I think countries on a blatantly wrong timezone such as Spain should take this opportunity to fix it. For instance, Spain could stay in UTC+1 all year round and

I think countries on a blatantly wrong timezone such as Spain should take this opportunity to fix it. For instance, Spain could stay in UTC+1 all year round and go back in the same timezone as Portugal (which is going to certainly pick its summer time as its whole-year round timezone), thus eliminating the artificial shift everything has there (people eat lunch at 14 and dinner at 22, but these times match roughly with 13 and 21 in solar time).

mcjiggerlog 8y ago
What exactly makes it "wrong"? I live in Spain and am perfectly happy with our current timezone and daylight saving. Staying on Winter time just means we get an hour of useless light long before anybody has woken up and take it away from the evening where it is far more appreciated. The spanish public have already been shown to be massively in favor of staying on UTC+2 year-round, though this would mean that the sun wouldn't rise till 0930 in the depths of Winter. I think once the government actually stops and takes a look at the repercussions of all options we will end up carrying on with the status quo.
wongarsu 8y ago
I would argue Portugal is the one in the "wrong" timezone here. If you want the sun to be at its high point at noon, Spain is obviously in the wrong time zone. But you see plenty of countries around the world choosing a slightly different timezone to facilitate trade and communication with some other country (or within itself, in the case of larger countries). With most other barriers to trade gone within the eurozone having to convert timezones is a significant inconvinience that (in the mind of many) outweighs having the sun in slightly the wrong place.
- allannienhuis 8y ago
  Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? Perhaps that has value in an agricultural society, but in today's world I'd much rather have more daylight in my leisure hours (evening) than my working hours.
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    Because that's the literal definition of local noon. That has value in any society that values precise measurements of physical observations. A purposefully inaccurate time zone is the equivalent of changing the length of the meter to make your daily commute less distance in the winter and more distance in the summer, or to make the meterstick longer all year just so you don't have to drive as many meters every day. It's ridiculous for distance, so why do we do it with time? Business hours are almost entirely arbitrary anyway. Change them instead.
    - oarsinsync 8y ago
      Solar noon and local noon are different things, unfortunately. Changing an offset isn't quite the same thing as changing the measure of a unit. Seconds, minutes and hours are not being adjusted as part of this. It would be more like starting to count from 1 metre instead of 0 metres to adjust the length of your commute. > Business hours are almost entirely arbitrary anyway. Change them instead. As it happens, a sibling comment has already pointed out that people have effectively done this. The time of day you eat lunch is arbitrary. So the lunch hour in Spain is 14:00 instead of 13:00, effectively resolving the 'wrong hour' issue.
    - allannienhuis 8y ago
      > because that's the literal definition of local noon. Fair enough. I was (of course?) using the term to mean 12:00pm which I think is what most people think of when thinking of 'noon'. Most people have approximately zero reasons to care about when the sun is at it's peak in the sky. Valuing precise measurements of physical observations doesn't make any difference to that in any way I'm aware of. The sunrise and sunset times have much larger implications on our activities, so why not optimise for those times? I get that any solution won't be optimal for everyone, but it's reasonable to try to optimise for the majority of people where you can.
  - throw0101a 8y ago
    > Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm Nothing wrong with wanting sunlight during after-work activities, but are there biological consequences to all of this clock fiddling? (Not arguing for/against, just spit-balling a hypothesis.)
- qalmakka 8y ago
  Spain was in GMT/UTC+0 until march 1940, when Franco's desire to align the country with Axis powers led him to change the clocks to CET. France was in GMT (as it is obvious given that its right below the UK) until the same year, when it was moved into German time following the Nazi invasion.
  - jvzr 8y ago
    Didn't know that. TIL. Thank you!
stoolpigeon 8y ago
I feel that way here in Hungary. If the Eastern Europe time zone was called something else maybe we'd be in it. In the summer it doesn't matter but I'd kill for sunset an hour later in the winter.
- jwr 8y ago
  Doesn't switching permanently to summer time fix that exact issue? (we suffer from the same problem in Poland)

mcjiggerlog 8y ago

What exactly makes it "wrong"? I live in Spain and am perfectly happy with our current timezone and daylight saving. Staying on Winter time just means we get an hour of useless light long before anybody has woken up and take it away from the evening where it is far more appreciated. The spanish public have already been shown to be massively in favor of staying on UTC+2 year-round, though this would mean that the sun wouldn't rise till 0930 in the depths of Winter. I think once the government actually stops and takes a look at the repercussions of all options we will end up carrying on with the status quo.

wongarsu 8y ago

I would argue Portugal is the one in the "wrong" timezone here. If you want the sun to be at its high point at noon, Spain is obviously in the wrong time zone. But you see plenty of countries around the world choosing a slightly different timezone to facilitate trade and communication with some other country (or within itself, in the case of larger countries). With most other barriers to trade gone within the eurozone having to convert timezones is a significant inconvinience that (in the mind of many) outweighs having the sun in slightly the wrong place.

allannienhuis 8y ago
Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? Perhaps that has value in an agricultural society, but in today's world I'd much rather have more daylight in my leisure hours (evening) than my working hours.
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  Because that's the literal definition of local noon. That has value in any society that values precise measurements of physical observations. A purposefully inaccurate time zone is the equivalent of changing the length of the meter to make your daily commute less distance in the winter and more distance in the summer, or to make the meterstick longer all year just so you don't have to drive as many meters every day. It's ridiculous for distance, so why do we do it with time? Business hours are almost entirely arbitrary anyway. Change them instead.
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    Solar noon and local noon are different things, unfortunately. Changing an offset isn't quite the same thing as changing the measure of a unit. Seconds, minutes and hours are not being adjusted as part of this. It would be more like starting to count from 1 metre instead of 0 metres to adjust the length of your commute. > Business hours are almost entirely arbitrary anyway. Change them instead. As it happens, a sibling comment has already pointed out that people have effectively done this. The time of day you eat lunch is arbitrary. So the lunch hour in Spain is 14:00 instead of 13:00, effectively resolving the 'wrong hour' issue.
  - allannienhuis 8y ago
    > because that's the literal definition of local noon. Fair enough. I was (of course?) using the term to mean 12:00pm which I think is what most people think of when thinking of 'noon'. Most people have approximately zero reasons to care about when the sun is at it's peak in the sky. Valuing precise measurements of physical observations doesn't make any difference to that in any way I'm aware of. The sunrise and sunset times have much larger implications on our activities, so why not optimise for those times? I get that any solution won't be optimal for everyone, but it's reasonable to try to optimise for the majority of people where you can.
- throw0101a 8y ago
  > Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm Nothing wrong with wanting sunlight during after-work activities, but are there biological consequences to all of this clock fiddling? (Not arguing for/against, just spit-balling a hypothesis.)
qalmakka 8y ago
Spain was in GMT/UTC+0 until march 1940, when Franco's desire to align the country with Axis powers led him to change the clocks to CET. France was in GMT (as it is obvious given that its right below the UK) until the same year, when it was moved into German time following the Nazi invasion.
- jvzr 8y ago
  Didn't know that. TIL. Thank you!

stoolpigeon 8y ago

I feel that way here in Hungary. If the Eastern Europe time zone was called something else maybe we'd be in it. In the summer it doesn't matter but I'd kill for sunset an hour later in the winter.

jwr 8y ago
Doesn't switching permanently to summer time fix that exact issue? (we suffer from the same problem in Poland)