4 ms·

There is nothing we can do, by design. The European Commission has the exclusive ability to create new laws, and they're almost totally isolated from any kind o

by makomk 8y ago

There is nothing we can do, by design. The European Commission has the exclusive ability to create new laws, and they're almost totally isolated from any kind of democratic control.

Konryan 8y ago
That's not exactly true. Parliament can petition the Commission to legislate on something, and citizens can put forward proposal through the ECI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens'_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens'_Initiative
- sampo 8y ago
  > Parliament can petition the Commission to legislate on something Has this ever happened in practice?
- vetinari 8y ago
  And the Commission can ignore both, if they feel like it. That's a very long way to anything that resembles democratic control.
dijit 8y ago
That's not true at all; they are: A) Elected (though, indirectly, through the elected officials that you elect to be MEPs) and B) A body of law drafters and implementors with no powers to ascend anything to law by themselves. The EC requires the EU parliament to vote on laws that it drafts, the EU parliament can require that laws be redrafted or amended. But the EU parliament is the only place a proposal can become law and those are our elected representatives voting.
- mcv 8y ago
  The European Commission is sadly not elected by the MEPs, but by PMs of the member states. The European Parliament has to approve the Commission, but can only approve or reject the entire Commission, and not individual members of it.
- repolfx 8y ago
  Commissioners are not elected, that stretches the meaning of the word past breaking point. By that definition literally any government employee right down to sewage workers are 'elected'. Realistically the Commission are in charge. Because the so-called Parliament can't do anything except (at most) slow down the EU project a little bit, most people who run for election are just EU fanboys/girls who want to be close to the action. In the cases where they send new legislation back to the Commission for more work, it's usually to demand the EU award itself even more power than it was already doing. It doesn't act as any real check on the Commissions power. Even in the rare case of dispute, nothing stops the Commission just making minor changes and telling the Parliament to vote again, which they do. In fact "vote again" is the modus operandi of the entire EU project, whenever anything the Commission and related institutions wants gets rejected. This setup is unique in the world and exists primarily to obfuscate the reality, as far as I can tell. Europhiles use it to claim the EU is "democratic" although the word Parliament means "the body of government that makes law" in English, and the EU Parliament doesn't meet that definition. There are free elections but they can't change anything meaningful, and as a result turnout has been falling steadily for decades, polls show the population don't trust the EU and see it as "out of touch" although fixing out of touch lawmakers is the entire point of elections. The whole thing is theatre intended to distract from the real power brokers: men like Selmayr and Juncker.
  - dijit 8y ago
    This is so thoroughly untrue that I'm concerned that you're intentionally misrepresenting things. In good faith I'll argue the following: Just because you do not directly elect the commissioners does not mean that they are "unelected". You can make the case that a garbage worker is "elected", but that would be by civil servants (by way of interview) but that is a stretch beyond the pale and a straw man (in all but the most charitable perspectives). You're right about the dwindling EU election turnout but this is largely fuelled by a lack of campaigning; most people don't even bother with EU politics because they're more concerned with their countries politics. The EU itself suffers from being uncharismatic and so open that it's a sea of information (which ends up seeming opaque because there's just /so/ much information). I suspect this will largely change with brexit as people are waking up to what the EU actually is. Largely in the UK for example everything that was a political failure was blamed on the EU and those lies are the foundation of what caused brexit. The EU has many, many flaws, but characterising it as undemocratic is flatly incorrect. > although the word Parliament means "the body of government that makes law" Technically parliament is an ancient french word that means "speaking", (akin to parley) but that's a digression. What I largely meant was that while the parliament itself cannot draft law, however it is the only body that can give ascent to a draft-legislature to make it law. That is not undemocratic, that is the definition of democracy with a sprinkling of civil service.

by makomk 8y ago

There is nothing we can do, by design. The European Commission has the exclusive ability to create new laws, and they're almost totally isolated from any kind of democratic control.

Konryan 8y ago

That's not exactly true. Parliament can petition the Commission to legislate on something, and citizens can put forward proposal through the ECI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens'_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens'_Initiative

sampo 8y ago
> Parliament can petition the Commission to legislate on something Has this ever happened in practice?
vetinari 8y ago
And the Commission can ignore both, if they feel like it. That's a very long way to anything that resembles democratic control.

dijit 8y ago

That's not true at all; they are: A) Elected (though, indirectly, through the elected officials that you elect to be MEPs) and B) A body of law drafters and implementors with no powers to ascend anything to law by themselves. The EC requires the EU parliament to vote on laws that it drafts, the EU parliament can require that laws be redrafted or amended. But the EU parliament is the only place a proposal can become law and those are our elected representatives voting.

mcv 8y ago
The European Commission is sadly not elected by the MEPs, but by PMs of the member states. The European Parliament has to approve the Commission, but can only approve or reject the entire Commission, and not individual members of it.
repolfx 8y ago
Commissioners are not elected, that stretches the meaning of the word past breaking point. By that definition literally any government employee right down to sewage workers are 'elected'. Realistically the Commission are in charge. Because the so-called Parliament can't do anything except (at most) slow down the EU project a little bit, most people who run for election are just EU fanboys/girls who want to be close to the action. In the cases where they send new legislation back to the Commission for more work, it's usually to demand the EU award itself even more power than it was already doing. It doesn't act as any real check on the Commissions power. Even in the rare case of dispute, nothing stops the Commission just making minor changes and telling the Parliament to vote again, which they do. In fact "vote again" is the modus operandi of the entire EU project, whenever anything the Commission and related institutions wants gets rejected. This setup is unique in the world and exists primarily to obfuscate the reality, as far as I can tell. Europhiles use it to claim the EU is "democratic" although the word Parliament means "the body of government that makes law" in English, and the EU Parliament doesn't meet that definition. There are free elections but they can't change anything meaningful, and as a result turnout has been falling steadily for decades, polls show the population don't trust the EU and see it as "out of touch" although fixing out of touch lawmakers is the entire point of elections. The whole thing is theatre intended to distract from the real power brokers: men like Selmayr and Juncker.
- dijit 8y ago
  This is so thoroughly untrue that I'm concerned that you're intentionally misrepresenting things. In good faith I'll argue the following: Just because you do not directly elect the commissioners does not mean that they are "unelected". You can make the case that a garbage worker is "elected", but that would be by civil servants (by way of interview) but that is a stretch beyond the pale and a straw man (in all but the most charitable perspectives). You're right about the dwindling EU election turnout but this is largely fuelled by a lack of campaigning; most people don't even bother with EU politics because they're more concerned with their countries politics. The EU itself suffers from being uncharismatic and so open that it's a sea of information (which ends up seeming opaque because there's just /so/ much information). I suspect this will largely change with brexit as people are waking up to what the EU actually is. Largely in the UK for example everything that was a political failure was blamed on the EU and those lies are the foundation of what caused brexit. The EU has many, many flaws, but characterising it as undemocratic is flatly incorrect. > although the word Parliament means "the body of government that makes law" Technically parliament is an ancient french word that means "speaking", (akin to parley) but that's a digression. What I largely meant was that while the parliament itself cannot draft law, however it is the only body that can give ascent to a draft-legislature to make it law. That is not undemocratic, that is the definition of democracy with a sprinkling of civil service.