6 ms·

Literally nobody is doing that. Young EU supporters, like me, are the very people who were demonstrating against this. We are caught between reckless Brexitee

Literally nobody is doing that. Young EU supporters, like me, are the very people who were demonstrating against this. We are caught between reckless Brexiteering nationalists and a lobby-bought EU parliament.

Chris2048 8y ago
Perhaps if you see EU parliament as "lobby-bought", you can accept there is good reason to oppose the EU, and stop calling brexiteers "nationalists".
- barrkel 8y ago
  There are no polls left showing support for Leave, and still parliament is pursuing it. Good reason to leave UK.
  - Chris2048 8y ago
    There was a referendum, who cares what the polls say.
    - cr1895 8y ago
      What was the referendum beyond a large-scale poll? It wasn't binding in nature.
      - Chris2048 8y ago
        Very well: There was a large-scale poll, who cares what the small-scale polls say. Of course, referendums aren't really polls. Polls have no official effect, you can freely refuse them and lose nothing.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Except local parliaments are also lobby-bought, so that doesn't solve the problem. Brexit is the politician's fallacy in action.
  - prepend 8y ago
    This is an interesting problem to me. I sometimes think that having multiple locally bought lobbies with individual priorities is preferred to a single giant lobby doing winner take all on large scales. It’s pessimistic as it assumes always corruption. But pragmatic as it minimizes corruption by maximiing the inefficiency and cost necessary for lobbies to spread cash more thinly and come into conflict with lobby arbitrage country by country. For example, copyright lobby might win in country #1, but hardware lobby wins in country #2 and we end up with conflicting laws in different countries. As opposed to both countries using the same laws so it comes down to which country spends the most money in total gets their law in both countries. Of course, I think it would be better to have a law set that represents will of the people and Pareto frontier of max indicidual benefit and community benefit.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      But you have giant lobbies anyway, because companies and cartels are multinational, even if the parliaments aren't. We already have three major international copyright treaties (Berne, UCC and TRIPS), two of which actually predate the EU, and the other was not primarily pushed by it, which set strict rules on how "independent" parliaments can legislate. So not having the EU doesn't seem to have helped.
  - Chris2048 8y ago
    Solve what problem? The problem of lobbies in general? No, it doesn't. The problem of EU lobbying, and inter-national divide-and-conquer? Yes, to some extent. Framing this as politician's fallacy, action for the sake of action, suggests that lobbying won't be worse in the EU than at a local level. In reality, it's easier to consolidate a smaller same-nation population, than multiple international ones. Just look at how stereotypes are used to discredit - lazy greeks, racist little-englanders etc.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - icebraining 8y ago
sadris 8y ago
Maybe you should have sided with the nationalists all along?
- js8 8y ago
  Thanks but no. There are alternatives, such as diem25.org.
trkh0 8y ago
There is no denying that postings here get hijacked by those who praise every fine and law directed at american tech companies so they should know or admit it if they do that this "directive" is part of that trend.
- andrepd 8y ago
  So what you're saying is that some people support some measures (while others don't) and disagree strongly with others (while some do agree). Sounds... right? :p
vsl 8y ago
Maybe this will have you reflect on dismissing opposition to EU ("reckless Brexiteering nationalists") and consider why people may oppose (some aspects of) current EU. Some of those "reckless Brexiteering nationalists" may simply have experienced similar things with EU legislation before, in areas you don't care about. I wouldn't say this is about "lobby-bought EU parliament". This is about the parliament routinely rubber-stamping everything. Rejections are extremely rare. This legislation had so wide opposition that there was a chance it won't pass. Even this passed. Consider how well the process works for things that aren't of so much public interest.

Chris2048 8y ago

Perhaps if you see EU parliament as "lobby-bought", you can accept there is good reason to oppose the EU, and stop calling brexiteers "nationalists".

barrkel 8y ago
There are no polls left showing support for Leave, and still parliament is pursuing it. Good reason to leave UK.
- Chris2048 8y ago
  There was a referendum, who cares what the polls say.
  - cr1895 8y ago
    What was the referendum beyond a large-scale poll? It wasn't binding in nature.
    - Chris2048 8y ago
      Very well: There was a large-scale poll, who cares what the small-scale polls say. Of course, referendums aren't really polls. Polls have no official effect, you can freely refuse them and lose nothing.
icebraining 8y ago
Except local parliaments are also lobby-bought, so that doesn't solve the problem. Brexit is the politician's fallacy in action.
- prepend 8y ago
  This is an interesting problem to me. I sometimes think that having multiple locally bought lobbies with individual priorities is preferred to a single giant lobby doing winner take all on large scales. It’s pessimistic as it assumes always corruption. But pragmatic as it minimizes corruption by maximiing the inefficiency and cost necessary for lobbies to spread cash more thinly and come into conflict with lobby arbitrage country by country. For example, copyright lobby might win in country #1, but hardware lobby wins in country #2 and we end up with conflicting laws in different countries. As opposed to both countries using the same laws so it comes down to which country spends the most money in total gets their law in both countries. Of course, I think it would be better to have a law set that represents will of the people and Pareto frontier of max indicidual benefit and community benefit.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    But you have giant lobbies anyway, because companies and cartels are multinational, even if the parliaments aren't. We already have three major international copyright treaties (Berne, UCC and TRIPS), two of which actually predate the EU, and the other was not primarily pushed by it, which set strict rules on how "independent" parliaments can legislate. So not having the EU doesn't seem to have helped.
- Chris2048 8y ago
  Solve what problem? The problem of lobbies in general? No, it doesn't. The problem of EU lobbying, and inter-national divide-and-conquer? Yes, to some extent. Framing this as politician's fallacy, action for the sake of action, suggests that lobbying won't be worse in the EU than at a local level. In reality, it's easier to consolidate a smaller same-nation population, than multiple international ones. Just look at how stereotypes are used to discredit - lazy greeks, racist little-englanders etc.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - icebraining 8y ago

sadris 8y ago

Maybe you should have sided with the nationalists all along?

js8 8y ago
Thanks but no. There are alternatives, such as diem25.org.

trkh0 8y ago

There is no denying that postings here get hijacked by those who praise every fine and law directed at american tech companies so they should know or admit it if they do that this "directive" is part of that trend.

andrepd 8y ago
So what you're saying is that some people support some measures (while others don't) and disagree strongly with others (while some do agree). Sounds... right? :p

vsl 8y ago

Maybe this will have you reflect on dismissing opposition to EU ("reckless Brexiteering nationalists") and consider why people may oppose (some aspects of) current EU. Some of those "reckless Brexiteering nationalists" may simply have experienced similar things with EU legislation before, in areas you don't care about. I wouldn't say this is about "lobby-bought EU parliament". This is about the parliament routinely rubber-stamping everything. Rejections are extremely rare. This legislation had so wide opposition that there was a chance it won't pass. Even this passed. Consider how well the process works for things that aren't of so much public interest.