11 ms·

This is a valuable post. I have not taken an NVC course before, but I have done a lot of work in negotiations, writing, and was brought up to use this style of

This is a valuable post. I have not taken an NVC course before, but I have done a lot of work in negotiations, writing, and was brought up to use this style of communication. One thing I would be interested in either from the OP or someone with experience with NVC, is how you recognize when you are being patronizing. Much of this communication style is the artifact of an implied power relationship, where the speaker already has the power, or is asserting power. In negotiations, there is the idea of appealing to shared principles and interests, and NVC can be a way to depersonalize the issue to focus on that. But the example of handling, "No," with empathy is to directly personalize the issue and address feelings, vs. the negotiation view which would be to ask, "if no, given we agree on X, let's leave my perceived solution aside for a moment and find out how we get X." I think empathy in business can often be zero sum, where it is just an expression of sympathy for someones lack of power in the situation, that is both psychologically horrible, and destroys value. I call that approach of fabricated empathy "seduce and smother," which is common in organizations today. This article provides an essential and valuable tool. However, this difference between empathy and principle, is that an accurate interpretation of the distinction?

davesuperman 8y ago
Great question. I use NVC frequently to people with a lot more power than me, and I'd actually suggest NVC is actually about putting yourself (and your needs) on the same level as those of the person your speaking with. The fundamental premise is that fundamental needs are shared by all humans... and the ideal strategy is one where all needs are met. So, you can avoid patronising someone by truly seeking to understand the other person's feelings and needs without judgement and taking those needs seriously. Again, easy to say, hard to do.
- motohagiography 8y ago
  That's the key I think. Appreciated. By putting your universal needs on the same level (not your "self"), you are in effect appealing to principle, so there is likely a great deal of alignment between the methods as described. Looking forward to reading up more on this. Thank you.
  - Jommi 8y ago
    Hey, just wanna point out your commenting style is tremendously good. Somehow each one has all the ingredients of a great comment for a discussion. Thanks for the effort!
    - motohagiography 8y ago
      That's a kind observation. If I worked for you that would be really satisfying to hear... This is why it's important to be conscientious about spirals of passive aggression with this communication style. Mastering it is mastery, trying is, well, doing it wrong. Great thread.
- newacct8086 8y ago
  "I use NVC frequently to people with a lot more power than me ..." Examples? I'm struggling to understand how one could "frequently" have to use NVC with "people a lot more power". Having to do this frequently itself is a problem with the organization, right?
  - andrei_says_ 8y ago
    Any conversation involving appreciation or a request can benefit from the principles of nvc which can be made in natural language.
nabla9 8y ago
Not denying responsibility is essential to NVC. It's patronizing if you have made your mind and only involve others into discussions to get support or ease them into going along and accepting. "I have to do X, I'm here to listen how you feel about X and empathize with you." is not real NVC. "Have to" is denying responsibility to outside conditions. NVC is best used when you have to do something and have a problem and are willing to communicate it to others as way to learn and find a solutions..
snarf21 8y ago
I think that is the main by-product of these things is forced empathy and introspection. It is too easy to get caught in one's head and this forces things to get structured and analyzed so they can be externalized.
tyingq 8y ago
"how you recognize when you are being patronizing" That's a good point. I'm fairly adept at recognizing when someone is trying to negotiate with me based on some kind of taught methodology. Because most of what's taught is counter to how you would do it naturally...thus it stands out. Once you recognize it, the natural reaction is to feel like you're being manipulated with some technique.
- waylandsmithers 8y ago
  I think part of it is that the observation needs to be genuinely objective rather than veiled evaluation. For example, when I did tech support I would occasionally get chat messages from my supervisor along the lines of: "Hey, I see that you closed out Ticket #XYZ without any resolution or response sent to the requester." (waits for response) (waits for response) (waits for response) ...and it would make me furious, regardless of whatever the situation was.
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    "Is there something you want me to do?" is a slightly less hostile way of saying "Get to the point." "The petitioner did not make a request upon which relief can be granted." might set off a snark detector, and "The ticketing system already automatically notifies the requester that their ticket has been closed." might inadvertently imply that the supervisor does not know how to do their job.
    - dodobirdlord 8y ago
      My habitual response to these sorts of messages has been to just affirm the statement. > "Hey, I see that you closed out Ticket #XYZ without any resolution or response sent to the requester." > "yes" / "yup" / "indeed" / "true" It's an effective way to sidestep having to pay attention until the person comes up with an actual question or request.
      - logfromblammo 8y ago
jrochkind1 8y ago
That's always been one of my biggest questions about NVC, it seems to assume two parties with equal power. But that's seldom precisely true, and in some cases _very_ not true. It's not clear to me how that effects the method and how to account to for it. I wonder if people writing on NVC have written much on this.
icelancer 8y ago
Constantly relying on "observations" is incredibly patronizing and I've gotten away from it outside of very formal reporting / performance improvement plans / firing someone. In my current line of work (and previous one, finance), if you cite observations as the main way of communicating, the other person is just going to cut you off and tell you to hurry the fuck up and tell them what they did wrong.
- tome 8y ago
  I'm sorry, I don't understand. If someone says to me "Three of the numbers in the report were inaccurate" (an observation) that's a lot more helpful to me than "Your work is sloppy" (an evaluation). Did you have something else in mind?
  - wdrw 8y ago
    "3 numbers were inaccurate" (great job, that's way below average) "3 numbers were inaccurate" (just an FYI for next time, no big deal) "3 numbers were inaccurate" (and I am annoyed that I had to deal with the consequences, please ensure it doesn't happen again) "3 numbers were inaccurate" (but I understand the pressure you were under and the volume of work you had, so I don't see it as an ongoing problem) "3 numbers were inaccurate" (and I see it as part of an ongoing, worrisome pattern of sloppy work coming from you, and I expect you to correct it) Sometimes the recipient of the message really does need the speaker's evaluation, not just the bare factual observations, to put the message in proper context. "My order took 4 days to arrive" is a lot less useful than "Thanks, my order only took 4 days to arrive" or "I had to wait a whole 4 days for my order to arrive".
    - skosch 8y ago
      This is addressed later in the article. The whole formula is: "3 numbers were inaccurate. I feel frustrated because I keep having to [deal with the consequences]. Would you be able to [double-check all calculations from now on]?"
      - 8y ago
ericmcer 8y ago
Great point. Growing up my mom must have read some book about how to comfort kids. She would always say “It sounds like you ...”. For example: “I hate my teacher.” Would receive a response of “It sounds like you are upset with your teacher.” As soon as I was old enough to recognize the pattern it became an infuriatingly depersonal way to be talked to. Sometimes the lack of “umm, like, just, kind of, etc.” will reveal speech as inorganic and make the whole thing seem false. After awhile it’s hard to even relate to someone who speaks to you like that as a person.
- sbst 8y ago
  It's called "active listening" and it's a powerful technique. There is no need though to sound dry or to avoid fillers when you are "actively listening". It's really not depersonal at all. Your mom was probably trying to comfort you but she failed to find the right tone.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    The responses need to scale with the level of the kid. A response that is fine for teaching a 4-year-old to recognize their emotions might end up sounding scripted and pro forma to an 11-year-old. Step #1 in this kind of conversation is to listen attentively to the other person. Trying to acknowledge someone’s feelings is much better than denying or ignoring them, but if the kid is obviously getting frustrated/annoyed at the response, then the parent needs to adjust what they are saying and doing. (Yes, this is hard.) In particular, if the kid is very heatedly angry and the parent calmly tells them “it sounds like you are upset”, that can be incredibly frustrating. If the mom had said “Your teacher must have really pissed you off!” (or whatever) the kid might have felt more understood and been willing to elaborate.
- andrei_says_ 8y ago
  Sounds like she was using it as a technique to calm you down/try ad change how you feel (best intentions manipulation) vs a way to understand you and be close with you. The words by themselves can feel empty and patronizing.
andrei_says_ 8y ago
NVC is often taught in a quite cerebral way which indeed may result in “proper nvc structure” conversations which are unfortunately emotionally disconnected and thus patronizing because they lack emotional alignment. When I teach NVC I focus on finding a sincere space of care which always starts with self empathy. I was taqught as a language practice but I find it most productive to teach it as a body/emotional/somatic/language practice as the language becomes fake without full alignment. Empathy as defined by M.R. In his nvc work is “I know what’s alive in you and you know that I know.” That’s it. There’s no other outcome. Many business use fake empathy as manipulation. There’s no sincere interest in understanding, just a technique to try and make people less mad. South park’s skit on Comcast workers was spot on with this.

davesuperman 8y ago

Great question. I use NVC frequently to people with a lot more power than me, and I'd actually suggest NVC is actually about putting yourself (and your needs) on the same level as those of the person your speaking with. The fundamental premise is that fundamental needs are shared by all humans... and the ideal strategy is one where all needs are met. So, you can avoid patronising someone by truly seeking to understand the other person's feelings and needs without judgement and taking those needs seriously. Again, easy to say, hard to do.

motohagiography 8y ago
That's the key I think. Appreciated. By putting your universal needs on the same level (not your "self"), you are in effect appealing to principle, so there is likely a great deal of alignment between the methods as described. Looking forward to reading up more on this. Thank you.
- Jommi 8y ago
  Hey, just wanna point out your commenting style is tremendously good. Somehow each one has all the ingredients of a great comment for a discussion. Thanks for the effort!
  - motohagiography 8y ago
    That's a kind observation. If I worked for you that would be really satisfying to hear... This is why it's important to be conscientious about spirals of passive aggression with this communication style. Mastering it is mastery, trying is, well, doing it wrong. Great thread.
newacct8086 8y ago
"I use NVC frequently to people with a lot more power than me ..." Examples? I'm struggling to understand how one could "frequently" have to use NVC with "people a lot more power". Having to do this frequently itself is a problem with the organization, right?
- andrei_says_ 8y ago
  Any conversation involving appreciation or a request can benefit from the principles of nvc which can be made in natural language.

nabla9 8y ago

Not denying responsibility is essential to NVC. It's patronizing if you have made your mind and only involve others into discussions to get support or ease them into going along and accepting. "I have to do X, I'm here to listen how you feel about X and empathize with you." is not real NVC. "Have to" is denying responsibility to outside conditions. NVC is best used when you have to do something and have a problem and are willing to communicate it to others as way to learn and find a solutions..

snarf21 8y ago

I think that is the main by-product of these things is forced empathy and introspection. It is too easy to get caught in one's head and this forces things to get structured and analyzed so they can be externalized.

tyingq 8y ago

"how you recognize when you are being patronizing" That's a good point. I'm fairly adept at recognizing when someone is trying to negotiate with me based on some kind of taught methodology. Because most of what's taught is counter to how you would do it naturally...thus it stands out. Once you recognize it, the natural reaction is to feel like you're being manipulated with some technique.

waylandsmithers 8y ago
I think part of it is that the observation needs to be genuinely objective rather than veiled evaluation. For example, when I did tech support I would occasionally get chat messages from my supervisor along the lines of: "Hey, I see that you closed out Ticket #XYZ without any resolution or response sent to the requester." (waits for response) (waits for response) (waits for response) ...and it would make me furious, regardless of whatever the situation was.
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  "Is there something you want me to do?" is a slightly less hostile way of saying "Get to the point." "The petitioner did not make a request upon which relief can be granted." might set off a snark detector, and "The ticketing system already automatically notifies the requester that their ticket has been closed." might inadvertently imply that the supervisor does not know how to do their job.
  - dodobirdlord 8y ago
    My habitual response to these sorts of messages has been to just affirm the statement. > "Hey, I see that you closed out Ticket #XYZ without any resolution or response sent to the requester." > "yes" / "yup" / "indeed" / "true" It's an effective way to sidestep having to pay attention until the person comes up with an actual question or request.
    - logfromblammo 8y ago

jrochkind1 8y ago

That's always been one of my biggest questions about NVC, it seems to assume two parties with equal power. But that's seldom precisely true, and in some cases _very_ not true. It's not clear to me how that effects the method and how to account to for it. I wonder if people writing on NVC have written much on this.

icelancer 8y ago

Constantly relying on "observations" is incredibly patronizing and I've gotten away from it outside of very formal reporting / performance improvement plans / firing someone. In my current line of work (and previous one, finance), if you cite observations as the main way of communicating, the other person is just going to cut you off and tell you to hurry the fuck up and tell them what they did wrong.

tome 8y ago
I'm sorry, I don't understand. If someone says to me "Three of the numbers in the report were inaccurate" (an observation) that's a lot more helpful to me than "Your work is sloppy" (an evaluation). Did you have something else in mind?
- wdrw 8y ago
  "3 numbers were inaccurate" (great job, that's way below average) "3 numbers were inaccurate" (just an FYI for next time, no big deal) "3 numbers were inaccurate" (and I am annoyed that I had to deal with the consequences, please ensure it doesn't happen again) "3 numbers were inaccurate" (but I understand the pressure you were under and the volume of work you had, so I don't see it as an ongoing problem) "3 numbers were inaccurate" (and I see it as part of an ongoing, worrisome pattern of sloppy work coming from you, and I expect you to correct it) Sometimes the recipient of the message really does need the speaker's evaluation, not just the bare factual observations, to put the message in proper context. "My order took 4 days to arrive" is a lot less useful than "Thanks, my order only took 4 days to arrive" or "I had to wait a whole 4 days for my order to arrive".
  - skosch 8y ago
    This is addressed later in the article. The whole formula is: "3 numbers were inaccurate. I feel frustrated because I keep having to [deal with the consequences]. Would you be able to [double-check all calculations from now on]?"
    - 8y ago

ericmcer 8y ago

Great point. Growing up my mom must have read some book about how to comfort kids. She would always say “It sounds like you ...”. For example: “I hate my teacher.” Would receive a response of “It sounds like you are upset with your teacher.” As soon as I was old enough to recognize the pattern it became an infuriatingly depersonal way to be talked to. Sometimes the lack of “umm, like, just, kind of, etc.” will reveal speech as inorganic and make the whole thing seem false. After awhile it’s hard to even relate to someone who speaks to you like that as a person.

sbst 8y ago
It's called "active listening" and it's a powerful technique. There is no need though to sound dry or to avoid fillers when you are "actively listening". It's really not depersonal at all. Your mom was probably trying to comfort you but she failed to find the right tone.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  The responses need to scale with the level of the kid. A response that is fine for teaching a 4-year-old to recognize their emotions might end up sounding scripted and pro forma to an 11-year-old. Step #1 in this kind of conversation is to listen attentively to the other person. Trying to acknowledge someone’s feelings is much better than denying or ignoring them, but if the kid is obviously getting frustrated/annoyed at the response, then the parent needs to adjust what they are saying and doing. (Yes, this is hard.) In particular, if the kid is very heatedly angry and the parent calmly tells them “it sounds like you are upset”, that can be incredibly frustrating. If the mom had said “Your teacher must have really pissed you off!” (or whatever) the kid might have felt more understood and been willing to elaborate.
andrei_says_ 8y ago
Sounds like she was using it as a technique to calm you down/try ad change how you feel (best intentions manipulation) vs a way to understand you and be close with you. The words by themselves can feel empty and patronizing.

andrei_says_ 8y ago

NVC is often taught in a quite cerebral way which indeed may result in “proper nvc structure” conversations which are unfortunately emotionally disconnected and thus patronizing because they lack emotional alignment. When I teach NVC I focus on finding a sincere space of care which always starts with self empathy. I was taqught as a language practice but I find it most productive to teach it as a body/emotional/somatic/language practice as the language becomes fake without full alignment. Empathy as defined by M.R. In his nvc work is “I know what’s alive in you and you know that I know.” That’s it. There’s no other outcome. Many business use fake empathy as manipulation. There’s no sincere interest in understanding, just a technique to try and make people less mad. South park’s skit on Comcast workers was spot on with this.