5 ms·

Unintended consequence: driving in Manhattan will be de facto off-limits to the poor.

Simple_Guy 8y ago
yes. when there is a competition for limited resources, the poorer you are the less likely you will have access to the resources. That's how it works. No matter what you do you could never change this. You will simply create an alternative (and/or parallel) system with its own poors.
- londons_explore 8y ago
  You could go full socialist and divide the parking/road space exactly equally amongst everyone.
  - Simple_Guy 8y ago
    You could try, but then you will end up with north korea.
paulcole 8y ago
Will they turn to Lyft, Uber, or perhaps some sort of “sub-way”?
randyrand 8y ago
There are many nice things that are off limits to the poor. I'm not sure if driving in manhattan should have a special exemption. Driving in manahatten is far from a necessity.
- jhall1468 8y ago
  > nice things > driving in manhattan I think you may be confused.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    Being driven around Manhattan is a nice thing, when congestion isn’t a concern.
cwperkins 8y ago
They passed low income metro cards last year for this reason. There is no great option here, there needs to be a new tax to raise money for new infrastructure and congestion pricing is the best of the worst options. It gives the city the flexibility to regulate future traffic flows and raises money for infrastructure. Raising taxes on the wealthy is a non-starter in NY state because they are not competitive as it is and the rich get up and leave.
shereadsthenews 8y ago
How many poor people do you think are driving around Manhattan today?
imgabe 8y ago
Have you seen the price of parking in Manhattan? How many poor people do you imagine there are currently driving around Manhattan?
- forgotmypw3 8y ago
  Parking policy in New York City, including Manhattan, is actually designed quite thoughtfully to make parking accessible to everyone. It is certainly easier if you have money, but you could be living in a van on close to $0/day in Manhattan and still find a spot to park somewhere every day, even if it takes a while.
Alex3917 8y ago
Poor people don't own cars, but subsidize the cars of those who do. Congestion pricing helps to fix that. The book Deschooling Society has a good explanation about how the design of public roads is used as a means of social control. Ctrl-F for the section on mechanical donkeys. https://monoskop.org/images/1/17/Illich_Ivan_Deschooling_Society.pdf https://monoskop.org/images/1/17/Illich_Ivan_Deschooling_Soc...
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Will the congestion charge pay for all the road infrastructure in lower Manhattan? If not, it just becomes a publicly funded place that excludes some people from entering.
- paganel 8y ago
  Poor people do own cars, it’s the rich that think that they don’t.
  - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    Not in Manhattan, they don't.
    - paganel 8y ago
      They probably would have if the regressive taxes (direct or indirect) related to owning a car in New York wouldn’t have been so high. But when you buy a $200 million penthouse you don’t want to breath in the engine fumes of a $1,000 daily driver.
cylinder 8y ago
That's not an unintended consequence. Why do you think poor people need to drive into Manhattan?
notatoad 8y ago
Not sure why that's a bad thing. Driving a private car in Manhattan is a luxury and should be priced accordingly. Transportation options should be available to everybody, but not every transportation option needs to be available to everybody.
CydeWeys 8y ago
An unlimited MetroCard costs $121/month (or $61/month if you're >65 or disabled) and is good for all subway lines and buses. That's way, way, way less than the cost of owning a vehicle here -- parking in my building is $60 for 3 or more hours, for comparison's sake. Driving in NYC is already off-limits to the poor and has been for awhile. Congestion pricing will be a net benefit to them because it will get a lot of car traffic off the road, thus reducing the chance of being struck by a vehicle (as a pedestrian), making buses much faster, and making biking more viable. Some of the poorest residents of NYC just use bikes, for example -- even the $121/month MetroCard is too much for them. Building out the bike lane network more would help them the most.

yes. when there is a competition for limited resources, the poorer you are the less likely you will have access to the resources. That's how it works. No matter what you do you could never change this. You will simply create an alternative (and/or parallel) system with its own poors.

londons_explore 8y ago
You could go full socialist and divide the parking/road space exactly equally amongst everyone.
- Simple_Guy 8y ago
  You could try, but then you will end up with north korea.

paulcole 8y ago

Will they turn to Lyft, Uber, or perhaps some sort of “sub-way”?

randyrand 8y ago

There are many nice things that are off limits to the poor. I'm not sure if driving in manhattan should have a special exemption. Driving in manahatten is far from a necessity.

jhall1468 8y ago
> nice things > driving in manhattan I think you may be confused.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Being driven around Manhattan is a nice thing, when congestion isn’t a concern.

cwperkins 8y ago

They passed low income metro cards last year for this reason. There is no great option here, there needs to be a new tax to raise money for new infrastructure and congestion pricing is the best of the worst options. It gives the city the flexibility to regulate future traffic flows and raises money for infrastructure. Raising taxes on the wealthy is a non-starter in NY state because they are not competitive as it is and the rich get up and leave.

shereadsthenews 8y ago

How many poor people do you think are driving around Manhattan today?

imgabe 8y ago

Have you seen the price of parking in Manhattan? How many poor people do you imagine there are currently driving around Manhattan?

forgotmypw3 8y ago
Parking policy in New York City, including Manhattan, is actually designed quite thoughtfully to make parking accessible to everyone. It is certainly easier if you have money, but you could be living in a van on close to $0/day in Manhattan and still find a spot to park somewhere every day, even if it takes a while.

Alex3917 8y ago

Poor people don't own cars, but subsidize the cars of those who do. Congestion pricing helps to fix that. The book Deschooling Society has a good explanation about how the design of public roads is used as a means of social control. Ctrl-F for the section on mechanical donkeys. https://monoskop.org/images/1/17/Illich_Ivan_Deschooling_Society.pdf https://monoskop.org/images/1/17/Illich_Ivan_Deschooling_Soc...

oh_sigh 8y ago
Will the congestion charge pay for all the road infrastructure in lower Manhattan? If not, it just becomes a publicly funded place that excludes some people from entering.
paganel 8y ago
Poor people do own cars, it’s the rich that think that they don’t.
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  Not in Manhattan, they don't.
  - paganel 8y ago
    They probably would have if the regressive taxes (direct or indirect) related to owning a car in New York wouldn’t have been so high. But when you buy a $200 million penthouse you don’t want to breath in the engine fumes of a $1,000 daily driver.

cylinder 8y ago

That's not an unintended consequence. Why do you think poor people need to drive into Manhattan?

notatoad 8y ago

Not sure why that's a bad thing. Driving a private car in Manhattan is a luxury and should be priced accordingly. Transportation options should be available to everybody, but not every transportation option needs to be available to everybody.

CydeWeys 8y ago

An unlimited MetroCard costs $121/month (or $61/month if you're >65 or disabled) and is good for all subway lines and buses. That's way, way, way less than the cost of owning a vehicle here -- parking in my building is $60 for 3 or more hours, for comparison's sake. Driving in NYC is already off-limits to the poor and has been for awhile. Congestion pricing will be a net benefit to them because it will get a lot of car traffic off the road, thus reducing the chance of being struck by a vehicle (as a pedestrian), making buses much faster, and making biking more viable. Some of the poorest residents of NYC just use bikes, for example -- even the $121/month MetroCard is too much for them. Building out the bike lane network more would help them the most.