4 ms·

Gasoline/Petrol taxes are probably your best analog if you want people to pay in proportion to how much they're driving.

ceejayoz 8y ago
Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Electric usage taxes or separate metering and rates for EV charging will be coming. That or much higher registration fees to offset the lost fuel tax revenue, which has already started happening.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- acton10 8y ago
  That's fair I didn't think about EVs. For now their adoption rate is low enough that Gas Taxes are still a decent stand in (~2-4% it sounds like with quick googling). https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true In the future though it probably will be a bigger problem. I suppose you could add similar sales taxes to public paid charging stations, but without separately metering home charging you'll probably still miss the bulk of EV users. Either the separate metering or a mileage reporting/road tax seem like they could fairly account for EV usage though.
  - greeneggs 8y ago
    This link says that in 2017 EVs accounted for 1.2% of the US auto market in sales numbers [1]. (But half EV sales are in California, so elsewhere the numbers are even worse.) In 1987, US average fuel economy was 22.0mpg. In 2018, it was 24.9mpg [2]. A 13% improvement in 31 years. The idea that the US as a whole has made "great strides" in improving fuel economy, and that we therefore need to rethink the gas tax, is ludicrous. Even in California, it is mostly wishful thinking, and it is definitely not the case in New York. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/wisniewski/ct-biz-electric-cars-getting-around-20180529-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/wisniewski/ct... [2] Table 3.1 in the 2018 report Excel file, https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/download-data-automotive-trends-report https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/download-data-automoti...
  - baddox 8y ago
    Do gas taxes even pay for the negative environmental and health externalities of producing and burning the gas, regardless of road wear? I don’t have a source, but I highly doubt they do.
- CedarMadness 8y ago
  I heard a proposal to tax tires instead, which I suppose would let EVs and hybrids pay their fair share (although it would probably cause more cheapskates to drive around on bald tires)
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    Or just get new tires in a neighboring state.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      There's a Federal-level excise tax on gasoline, so you could take that approach with tires. I don't think it's a great idea, though... too many people already drive on shitty tires years past their prime.
  - ip26 8y ago
    Don't we levy road taxes on tires already? (albeit at very low rates)
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  I'm okay with EV's getting a "discount" since they create less pollution. Gas vehicles can pay more than their fair share towards road repairs in exchange for the damage they're doing to the environment. If there are eventually too many EV's to generate any road repair revenue, we can re-assess then. For now, the incentive structure makes sense, and should be increased if anything.
  - jhall1468 8y ago
    It's not a discount, it's free. And given the price of EV's, you're not just suggesting a regressive tax, your suggesting a regressive tax where near the top of the tax bracket pays no taxes. EV's already have plenty of tax incentives. Taxes need to be both a stick and a carrot. EV's get a carrot, all drivers get a stick.
    - ip26 8y ago
      It will have to be fixed eventually, but it's not that big of a problem (yet) & reworking highway funding is going to be a horrifying & colossal undertaking we'd like to do only once! Just as two datapoints, the Fed hasn't raised the federal gas tax in 25 years, and in my state voters have rejected state gas tax increases for 28 years. Whatever new funding source is identified to replace or supplement the gas tax, is going to have many enemies.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- baddox 8y ago
  Shouldn’t gasoline taxes just cover the direct negative externalities of gasoline, namely the environmental and health impact of creating and then burning the gasoline?
  - ip26 8y ago
    Maybe in theory, but it was a useful shorthand for road usage fifty years ago when recording the number of miles each citizen drove (for a highway use tax) was a rather daunting task.

ceejayoz 8y ago

Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.

ams6110 8y ago
Electric usage taxes or separate metering and rates for EV charging will be coming. That or much higher registration fees to offset the lost fuel tax revenue, which has already started happening.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
acton10 8y ago
That's fair I didn't think about EVs. For now their adoption rate is low enough that Gas Taxes are still a decent stand in (~2-4% it sounds like with quick googling). https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true In the future though it probably will be a bigger problem. I suppose you could add similar sales taxes to public paid charging stations, but without separately metering home charging you'll probably still miss the bulk of EV users. Either the separate metering or a mileage reporting/road tax seem like they could fairly account for EV usage though.
- greeneggs 8y ago
  This link says that in 2017 EVs accounted for 1.2% of the US auto market in sales numbers [1]. (But half EV sales are in California, so elsewhere the numbers are even worse.) In 1987, US average fuel economy was 22.0mpg. In 2018, it was 24.9mpg [2]. A 13% improvement in 31 years. The idea that the US as a whole has made "great strides" in improving fuel economy, and that we therefore need to rethink the gas tax, is ludicrous. Even in California, it is mostly wishful thinking, and it is definitely not the case in New York. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/wisniewski/ct-biz-electric-cars-getting-around-20180529-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/wisniewski/ct... [2] Table 3.1 in the 2018 report Excel file, https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/download-data-automotive-trends-report https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/download-data-automoti...
- baddox 8y ago
  Do gas taxes even pay for the negative environmental and health externalities of producing and burning the gas, regardless of road wear? I don’t have a source, but I highly doubt they do.
CedarMadness 8y ago
I heard a proposal to tax tires instead, which I suppose would let EVs and hybrids pay their fair share (although it would probably cause more cheapskates to drive around on bald tires)
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  Or just get new tires in a neighboring state.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    There's a Federal-level excise tax on gasoline, so you could take that approach with tires. I don't think it's a great idea, though... too many people already drive on shitty tires years past their prime.
- ip26 8y ago
  Don't we levy road taxes on tires already? (albeit at very low rates)
Wowfunhappy 8y ago
I'm okay with EV's getting a "discount" since they create less pollution. Gas vehicles can pay more than their fair share towards road repairs in exchange for the damage they're doing to the environment. If there are eventually too many EV's to generate any road repair revenue, we can re-assess then. For now, the incentive structure makes sense, and should be increased if anything.
- jhall1468 8y ago
  It's not a discount, it's free. And given the price of EV's, you're not just suggesting a regressive tax, your suggesting a regressive tax where near the top of the tax bracket pays no taxes. EV's already have plenty of tax incentives. Taxes need to be both a stick and a carrot. EV's get a carrot, all drivers get a stick.
  - ip26 8y ago
    It will have to be fixed eventually, but it's not that big of a problem (yet) & reworking highway funding is going to be a horrifying & colossal undertaking we'd like to do only once! Just as two datapoints, the Fed hasn't raised the federal gas tax in 25 years, and in my state voters have rejected state gas tax increases for 28 years. Whatever new funding source is identified to replace or supplement the gas tax, is going to have many enemies.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
baddox 8y ago
Shouldn’t gasoline taxes just cover the direct negative externalities of gasoline, namely the environmental and health impact of creating and then burning the gasoline?
- ip26 8y ago
  Maybe in theory, but it was a useful shorthand for road usage fifty years ago when recording the number of miles each citizen drove (for a highway use tax) was a rather daunting task.