5 ms·

Isn't congestion pricing taxing people who use the roads? An Uber driver uses the roads a lot more than your average New Yorker, what taxes exist to cover that

by ses1984 8y ago

Isn't congestion pricing taxing people who use the roads? An Uber driver uses the roads a lot more than your average New Yorker, what taxes exist to cover that imbalance? (asking in earnest) Earmarking tax dollars for projects is kind of meaningless. Subsidizing public transportation is a good idea anyway. High costs of transportation disproportionately hurt poorer people. If you're not for public transportation then I'm not sure we'd see eye to eye on much of anything.

acton10 8y ago
Gasoline/Petrol taxes are probably your best analog if you want people to pay in proportion to how much they're driving.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Electric usage taxes or separate metering and rates for EV charging will be coming. That or much higher registration fees to offset the lost fuel tax revenue, which has already started happening.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - acton10 8y ago
    That's fair I didn't think about EVs. For now their adoption rate is low enough that Gas Taxes are still a decent stand in (~2-4% it sounds like with quick googling). https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true In the future though it probably will be a bigger problem. I suppose you could add similar sales taxes to public paid charging stations, but without separately metering home charging you'll probably still miss the bulk of EV users. Either the separate metering or a mileage reporting/road tax seem like they could fairly account for EV usage though.
    - greeneggs 8y ago
      This link says that in 2017 EVs accounted for 1.2% of the US auto market in sales numbers [1]. (But half EV sales are in California, so elsewhere the numbers are even worse.) In 1987, US average fuel economy was 22.0mpg. In 2018, it was 24.9mpg [2]. A 13% improvement in 31 years. The idea that the US as a whole has made "great strides" in improving fuel economy, and that we therefore need to rethink the gas tax, is ludicrous. Even in California, it is mostly wishful thinking, and it is definitely not the case in New York. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/wisniewski/ct-biz-electric-cars-getting-around-20180529-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/wisniewski/ct... [2] Table 3.1 in the 2018 report Excel file, https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/download-data-automotive-trends-report https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/download-data-automoti...
    - baddox 8y ago
      Do gas taxes even pay for the negative environmental and health externalities of producing and burning the gas, regardless of road wear? I don’t have a source, but I highly doubt they do.
  - CedarMadness 8y ago
    I heard a proposal to tax tires instead, which I suppose would let EVs and hybrids pay their fair share (although it would probably cause more cheapskates to drive around on bald tires)
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      Or just get new tires in a neighboring state.
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        There's a Federal-level excise tax on gasoline, so you could take that approach with tires. I don't think it's a great idea, though... too many people already drive on shitty tires years past their prime.
    - ip26 8y ago
      Don't we levy road taxes on tires already? (albeit at very low rates)
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    I'm okay with EV's getting a "discount" since they create less pollution. Gas vehicles can pay more than their fair share towards road repairs in exchange for the damage they're doing to the environment. If there are eventually too many EV's to generate any road repair revenue, we can re-assess then. For now, the incentive structure makes sense, and should be increased if anything.
    - jhall1468 8y ago
      It's not a discount, it's free. And given the price of EV's, you're not just suggesting a regressive tax, your suggesting a regressive tax where near the top of the tax bracket pays no taxes. EV's already have plenty of tax incentives. Taxes need to be both a stick and a carrot. EV's get a carrot, all drivers get a stick.
      - ip26 8y ago
        It will have to be fixed eventually, but it's not that big of a problem (yet) & reworking highway funding is going to be a horrifying & colossal undertaking we'd like to do only once! Just as two datapoints, the Fed hasn't raised the federal gas tax in 25 years, and in my state voters have rejected state gas tax increases for 28 years. Whatever new funding source is identified to replace or supplement the gas tax, is going to have many enemies.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - baddox 8y ago
    Shouldn’t gasoline taxes just cover the direct negative externalities of gasoline, namely the environmental and health impact of creating and then burning the gasoline?
    - ip26 8y ago
      Maybe in theory, but it was a useful shorthand for road usage fifty years ago when recording the number of miles each citizen drove (for a highway use tax) was a rather daunting task.
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
Ubers have a $2.75 + $0.75 per passenger surcharge now. That may go away or get modified with the future changes.
BurningFrog 8y ago
Paying for using something isn't usually considered a tax. Do you think of buying a subway ticket as a tax on travel?
- wyldfire 8y ago
  It's considered a use tax, like the existing gasoline taxes used to fund roads and highway tolls.
  - BurningFrog 8y ago
    The difference is that the subway ticket directly finances your subway ride. It's just like how a private subway company would have financed it, so calling it a "tax" just because the train is run by a government entity is a bit weird.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > the subway ticket directly finances your subway ride Money is fungible. The MTA budget most recently subsidised upstate boondoggles.
    - ses1984 8y ago
      Your subway fare goes into the city budget. The cost of the subway system comes out of the city budget. Your subway fare only "directly finances" the subway system as long as it's convenient to think of it that way. If there was ever a huge surplus of subway money, it would go to other projects. If there was ever a huge deficit elsewhere, money would come out of the subway system.
      - BurningFrog 8y ago
        Perhaps, depending on the city. I believe the NYC subway is state run. So to be clear, you do consider subway and bus tickets to be taxes? How about US postage stamps? Public utility bills?

acton10 8y ago

Gasoline/Petrol taxes are probably your best analog if you want people to pay in proportion to how much they're driving.

ceejayoz 8y ago
Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Electric usage taxes or separate metering and rates for EV charging will be coming. That or much higher registration fees to offset the lost fuel tax revenue, which has already started happening.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- acton10 8y ago
  That's fair I didn't think about EVs. For now their adoption rate is low enough that Gas Taxes are still a decent stand in (~2-4% it sounds like with quick googling). https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true In the future though it probably will be a bigger problem. I suppose you could add similar sales taxes to public paid charging stations, but without separately metering home charging you'll probably still miss the bulk of EV users. Either the separate metering or a mileage reporting/road tax seem like they could fairly account for EV usage though.
  - greeneggs 8y ago
    This link says that in 2017 EVs accounted for 1.2% of the US auto market in sales numbers [1]. (But half EV sales are in California, so elsewhere the numbers are even worse.) In 1987, US average fuel economy was 22.0mpg. In 2018, it was 24.9mpg [2]. A 13% improvement in 31 years. The idea that the US as a whole has made "great strides" in improving fuel economy, and that we therefore need to rethink the gas tax, is ludicrous. Even in California, it is mostly wishful thinking, and it is definitely not the case in New York. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/wisniewski/ct-biz-electric-cars-getting-around-20180529-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/wisniewski/ct... [2] Table 3.1 in the 2018 report Excel file, https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/download-data-automotive-trends-report https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/download-data-automoti...
  - baddox 8y ago
    Do gas taxes even pay for the negative environmental and health externalities of producing and burning the gas, regardless of road wear? I don’t have a source, but I highly doubt they do.
- CedarMadness 8y ago
  I heard a proposal to tax tires instead, which I suppose would let EVs and hybrids pay their fair share (although it would probably cause more cheapskates to drive around on bald tires)
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    Or just get new tires in a neighboring state.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      There's a Federal-level excise tax on gasoline, so you could take that approach with tires. I don't think it's a great idea, though... too many people already drive on shitty tires years past their prime.
  - ip26 8y ago
    Don't we levy road taxes on tires already? (albeit at very low rates)
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  I'm okay with EV's getting a "discount" since they create less pollution. Gas vehicles can pay more than their fair share towards road repairs in exchange for the damage they're doing to the environment. If there are eventually too many EV's to generate any road repair revenue, we can re-assess then. For now, the incentive structure makes sense, and should be increased if anything.
  - jhall1468 8y ago
    It's not a discount, it's free. And given the price of EV's, you're not just suggesting a regressive tax, your suggesting a regressive tax where near the top of the tax bracket pays no taxes. EV's already have plenty of tax incentives. Taxes need to be both a stick and a carrot. EV's get a carrot, all drivers get a stick.
    - ip26 8y ago
      It will have to be fixed eventually, but it's not that big of a problem (yet) & reworking highway funding is going to be a horrifying & colossal undertaking we'd like to do only once! Just as two datapoints, the Fed hasn't raised the federal gas tax in 25 years, and in my state voters have rejected state gas tax increases for 28 years. Whatever new funding source is identified to replace or supplement the gas tax, is going to have many enemies.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- baddox 8y ago
  Shouldn’t gasoline taxes just cover the direct negative externalities of gasoline, namely the environmental and health impact of creating and then burning the gasoline?
  - ip26 8y ago
    Maybe in theory, but it was a useful shorthand for road usage fifty years ago when recording the number of miles each citizen drove (for a highway use tax) was a rather daunting task.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago

Ubers have a $2.75 + $0.75 per passenger surcharge now. That may go away or get modified with the future changes.

BurningFrog 8y ago

Paying for using something isn't usually considered a tax. Do you think of buying a subway ticket as a tax on travel?

wyldfire 8y ago
It's considered a use tax, like the existing gasoline taxes used to fund roads and highway tolls.
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  The difference is that the subway ticket directly finances your subway ride. It's just like how a private subway company would have financed it, so calling it a "tax" just because the train is run by a government entity is a bit weird.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > the subway ticket directly finances your subway ride Money is fungible. The MTA budget most recently subsidised upstate boondoggles.
  - ses1984 8y ago
    Your subway fare goes into the city budget. The cost of the subway system comes out of the city budget. Your subway fare only "directly finances" the subway system as long as it's convenient to think of it that way. If there was ever a huge surplus of subway money, it would go to other projects. If there was ever a huge deficit elsewhere, money would come out of the subway system.
    - BurningFrog 8y ago
      Perhaps, depending on the city. I believe the NYC subway is state run. So to be clear, you do consider subway and bus tickets to be taxes? How about US postage stamps? Public utility bills?