4 ms·

> infrastructure data That bit scared me a bit. It is not always known where those massive pipes are through the land. I hope they did leave out the details th

> infrastructure data That bit scared me a bit. It is not always known where those massive pipes are through the land. I hope they did leave out the details that would pose security threat/information that can be used in a sabotage.

pjc50 8y ago
They're not exactly secret either. Has any terrorist group tried this in a Western country?
- HenryBemis 8y ago
  Fair point, not yet. But I assume that a pipe that is placed 5m underground on an unmarked path crossing a valley, was done so for a security as well as convenience. I will not apply to see that data, but if I was a "Red Team", it would be 'useful' information to have.
  - derefr 8y ago
    They used to have quite the secrets policy in place to cover critical fuel infrastructure, yes. I'm pretty sure the only reason they're opening this up now, is that it's now become so easy to get ground-penetrating radar satellites into space, that every state actor now knows where all everyone else's pipes are. They can't hide it, so they may as well give up trying.
- godelski 8y ago
  And let's be honest with ourselves, if they were trying to destroy things (and not... well... terrorize...) then there are A LOT of sectors that are EXTREMELY vulnerable [0]. It doesn't take much knowledge or money to perform acts that would have extreme economic impacts. But wannacry (or something far worse) is less scary than a person shooting up a night club. Terrorists are trying to strike fear, not economical damage. State actors would be the ones trying to do economic damage, but we're not really at war with people that would do that (on a meaningful scale). [0] a quick google search will lead you down a huge rabbit hole. Here's a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw but there's huge flaws in all these sectors and even in cellular communication. Just watch some Black Hat and Def Con conference talks.
- telchar 8y ago
  Does accidental damage count? https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/americas/mexico-gasoline-explosion-tlahuelilpan/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/americas/mexico-gasoline-expl... Edit: only the ignition was accidental, the puncturing was intentional
Mikeb85 8y ago
It's more likely that some negligent construction workers accidentally puncture a pipeline than terrorists blowing it up.
- killjoywashere 8y ago
  Negligence can be factored into insurance costs. Act of war, not so much.
  - Mikeb85 8y ago
    I'm sure plenty of insurance companies would underwrite terrorist events, considering how rare they are compared to other risks.
haser_au 8y ago
Security through obscurity should be long dead by now. If the only thing stopping people from damaging these assets is their 'secret' location, we have a big problem.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Do they put Fylingdales on maps yet? Though of course it's been well known for decades :)
  - arethuza 8y ago
    I did a quick check and RAF Fylingdales is easy to find on Apple and Google maps. However, my OS Maps app won't find it even though I can find other 'normal' RAF bases (e.g. RAF Lossiemouth).
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      I should be surprised that OS still don't list it, but I think it's almost quaint these days. :)
      - arethuza 8y ago
        Well, for doing anything outdoors I'd take OS 1:25000 maps over Google or Apple maps any day (both the app and backup paper versions).
        NeedMoreTea 8y ago
        Me too. I meant the continued absence of a huge base and radomes from the OS maps was the quaint relic, expressed poorly. :)
- dantheman 8y ago
  This is completely incorrect. Things can be made so difficult that they become impractical by forcing the bad actor to do a lot of grunt work.
pythonslayer 8y ago
The only people I’ve ever heard of seeking these out are environmentalists referred to as “valve turners”, and that is exactly what they do they do. They turn the valve to the OFF position, and many of them do prison time for it.
teh_klev 8y ago
> It is not always known where those massive pipes are through the land These pipelines are quite easily identified on-shore by surface markers in the UK[0]. Also, like I did, folks would have noticed the fairly substantial earthworks that went on when they were being installed....and bided their time if they were to interfere with them. I remember the excavations in Scotland for these pipelines back in the late 70's and 80's. There's no big secret about them. As to offshore, well your "terrorists" are going to need a fairly huge amount of resources to attack them...deep sea divers, vessels large enough to withstand North Sea storms etc. [0]: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-oil-pipeline-marker-with-florescent-top-and-a-post-showing-where-the-27654385.html https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-oil-pipeline-marker-with-f...
- arethuza 8y ago
  I have read an account of the SBS storming a North Sea rig as part of an exercise and it wasn't exactly easy for them with all the very best training and gear and supported by Royal Navy ships - and that was in reasonable weather conditions.

pjc50 8y ago

They're not exactly secret either. Has any terrorist group tried this in a Western country?

HenryBemis 8y ago
Fair point, not yet. But I assume that a pipe that is placed 5m underground on an unmarked path crossing a valley, was done so for a security as well as convenience. I will not apply to see that data, but if I was a "Red Team", it would be 'useful' information to have.
- derefr 8y ago
  They used to have quite the secrets policy in place to cover critical fuel infrastructure, yes. I'm pretty sure the only reason they're opening this up now, is that it's now become so easy to get ground-penetrating radar satellites into space, that every state actor now knows where all everyone else's pipes are. They can't hide it, so they may as well give up trying.
godelski 8y ago
And let's be honest with ourselves, if they were trying to destroy things (and not... well... terrorize...) then there are A LOT of sectors that are EXTREMELY vulnerable [0]. It doesn't take much knowledge or money to perform acts that would have extreme economic impacts. But wannacry (or something far worse) is less scary than a person shooting up a night club. Terrorists are trying to strike fear, not economical damage. State actors would be the ones trying to do economic damage, but we're not really at war with people that would do that (on a meaningful scale). [0] a quick google search will lead you down a huge rabbit hole. Here's a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw but there's huge flaws in all these sectors and even in cellular communication. Just watch some Black Hat and Def Con conference talks.
telchar 8y ago
Does accidental damage count? https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/americas/mexico-gasoline-explosion-tlahuelilpan/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/americas/mexico-gasoline-expl... Edit: only the ignition was accidental, the puncturing was intentional

Mikeb85 8y ago

It's more likely that some negligent construction workers accidentally puncture a pipeline than terrorists blowing it up.

killjoywashere 8y ago
Negligence can be factored into insurance costs. Act of war, not so much.
- Mikeb85 8y ago
  I'm sure plenty of insurance companies would underwrite terrorist events, considering how rare they are compared to other risks.

haser_au 8y ago

Security through obscurity should be long dead by now. If the only thing stopping people from damaging these assets is their 'secret' location, we have a big problem.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Do they put Fylingdales on maps yet? Though of course it's been well known for decades :)
- arethuza 8y ago
  I did a quick check and RAF Fylingdales is easy to find on Apple and Google maps. However, my OS Maps app won't find it even though I can find other 'normal' RAF bases (e.g. RAF Lossiemouth).
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    I should be surprised that OS still don't list it, but I think it's almost quaint these days. :)
    - arethuza 8y ago
      Well, for doing anything outdoors I'd take OS 1:25000 maps over Google or Apple maps any day (both the app and backup paper versions).
      - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
        Me too. I meant the continued absence of a huge base and radomes from the OS maps was the quaint relic, expressed poorly. :)
dantheman 8y ago
This is completely incorrect. Things can be made so difficult that they become impractical by forcing the bad actor to do a lot of grunt work.

pythonslayer 8y ago

The only people I’ve ever heard of seeking these out are environmentalists referred to as “valve turners”, and that is exactly what they do they do. They turn the valve to the OFF position, and many of them do prison time for it.

teh_klev 8y ago

> It is not always known where those massive pipes are through the land These pipelines are quite easily identified on-shore by surface markers in the UK[0]. Also, like I did, folks would have noticed the fairly substantial earthworks that went on when they were being installed....and bided their time if they were to interfere with them. I remember the excavations in Scotland for these pipelines back in the late 70's and 80's. There's no big secret about them. As to offshore, well your "terrorists" are going to need a fairly huge amount of resources to attack them...deep sea divers, vessels large enough to withstand North Sea storms etc. [0]: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-oil-pipeline-marker-with-florescent-top-and-a-post-showing-where-the-27654385.html https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-oil-pipeline-marker-with-f...

arethuza 8y ago
I have read an account of the SBS storming a North Sea rig as part of an exercise and it wasn't exactly easy for them with all the very best training and gear and supported by Royal Navy ships - and that was in reasonable weather conditions.