5 ms·

9 weeks into this hiring sprint. Maybe a few more depending on how you count. ~2-3ish years into management, again, depending on how we count. I agree with

by ep103 8y ago

9 weeks into this hiring sprint. Maybe a few more depending on how you count. ~2-3ish years into management, again, depending on how we count. I agree with your second statement. I suppose what I'm trying to vocalize is the following: When working on code, the work itself is fun. Coding is enjoyable. That means an 8-10 hour day is largely 8-10 hours of enjoyment. With management, those ~8-9 hours are no longer enjoyable. The end result is extremely fulfilling and meaningful, much more so than code... but I'm genuinely not finding the actual work of management enjoyable, quite the opposite. I think I need a way to find the managerial aspect itself enjoyable, otherwise it feels like light suffering for several hours each day in return for the overall health of the rest of the team. And as much as I like these people, that's not long-term sustainable. I think the way forward might be to fully commit to the positive aspect you highlighted. To consciously attempt to keep in mind the meaning and enjoyment that comes from the making of connections and improvements of the people around me. I'd love it if a more experienced manager could chime in here and speak to whether or not that really can be enough to power one through the endless meetings, excel reports and politics given time. And I agree with what other commenters have said. It is simply not possible to be a good manager, while attempting to stay relevant in technology. There simply isn't enough time each day for me to balance my life, keep up to date with code, and learn the management skills I need to improve on. But that means consciously giving up on staying technically relevant, in this competitive industry..... for a new role which day to day, I'm not finding day-to-day enjoyable. That's a huge leap of faith, that quite honestly, I find very scary to take. Meanwhile, it seems similarly risky to just give in and go back to pure code, and give up on this managerial aspect. I clearly do have an aptitude for it, it clearly is rewarding, and getting the opportunity to climb this high simply does not happen every day. Hence, the feeling of being in need of advice, and somewhat stuck.

chillydawg 8y ago
The recruitment is definitely a killer. If at all possible, outsource as much of that as you can. To internal recruiters, to engineers in your team, to external recruiters, to a pa you might want to hire to do bits of it.
sailfast 8y ago
Have you tried diving into some gnarly bugs or some off-critical-path items that would help you stay in the code while doing these other things? A manager’s job is typically about building a team as their product, but it’s also important to stay connected to the technical part - both for love and for relevance / humility. Have you asked (if available) someone to help with recruiting? Maybe offload some of the nitty gritty things that you aren’t adding value on to someone that can, or somebody that works for you and is interested in that side of the work? To enjoy every minute of the day requires understanding why you are doing it - to build your team. Connecting back to what it will get you may help. If you’re stuck doing stuff you don’t want to do because somebody above you “said so” (the curse of middle management) then that may make things a lot harder but you may also talk to them to help shape your role into what you want for what they need.
- fhbdukfrh 8y ago
  I don't think a manager should be grabbing tough bugs unless there is no time sensitivity (so why are you addressing them?) as they never have enough time to complete them and become a blocker. I think your best bet is to do strategic technical spikes and as an output identify deeper areas for your engineers to pursue.
groby_b 8y ago
I'm managing in one form or another for ~12 years, so... somewhat experienced at least, but take with a grain of salt. Does it get better? Maybe. That really depends on what you like. If you find joy in, essentially, coaching & teaching, it's a great job. If you enjoy politics, you'll be OK. If you get your joy from creating, it's much harder. You still create, as a manager. Teams. Processes. Cultures. All things that have incredibly long feedback cycles, nowhere close to writing some code, running it, iterating. I've currently got things in flight that (hopefully) will pay off three years from now. There is no instant success. That said, all the things where I as a dev said "Why on earth are we doing this stupid thing"? I get to fix those. Or, alternatively, to learn why it's not quite so stupid as I thought. Politics will happen, though. Wherever humans interact, there are politics. There are healthy levels, and dysfunctional levels. (Everybody lobbies for their project, but there are plenty of lines they shouldn't cross) Excel sheets will happen, too. After text docs and e-mail, it's your most important tool. (And many of us who came from tech nourish their yearning for building things by scripting the hell out of them, because that's all we get to code) But again, if you like interacting with people, at some point, a switch will flip. You'll have a day of back-to-back meetings about genuinely interesting efforts, and you'll walk out of it thinking "Damn, I can't believe they pay me for just spending a whole day chatting about cool stuff". You'll see the first of your reports stepping into a leadership role. You see a multi-year, multi-team effort come to fruition and can honestly say "would've failed without me bringing the teams together" So yes, it can be enjoyable. It depends on what you want, though. There's nothing wrong with doing a management stint and going back to coding after a few years, either. A lot of front-line managers bounce back and forth between the two sides. Hope that's at least remotely helpful. EDIT: Forgot to say that your place sounds... not quite healthy. It might be a question of finding a company that actually values managing and doesn't have it degenerate into total soul suck. They do exist.
windowsworkstoo 8y ago
Looping back in from my other answer - looking at this, I think you probably know what you want to do, but are still trying to hedge a bet each way. I absolutely empathize - I have been in this exact headspace quite recently. To answer some specifics, from my perspective > I'd love it if a more experienced manager could chime in here and speak to whether or not that really can be enough to power one through the endless meetings, excel reports and politics given time. Yes, of course. Some find meaning and purpose in that and enjoy it. However, I think you do not, not truly. And this is probably why you are keeping a leg in the tech side - especially based on your paragraphs around this one. My suggestion is talk - out loud - to someone about this and resolve what you actually want to do with yourself. And then make a decision. Because being stuck between these two things will tear you up far more than making a potentially "non-optimal" decision (whatever that actually means). As to me - I chose option 3, working for myself as a consultant. I realised that while I love the people aspect, I have some distaste for various aspect of traditionally corporate life. Now I can just swan in, talk game at high and low levels and leave when I need to. Works for me. Might not work for you. This is an intensely personal junction you are at and only you can know the correct answer.
kelnos 8y ago
> it seems similarly risky to just give in and go back to pure code, and give up on this managerial aspect. Why do you say that? It certainly depends on company and industry, but there are many companies that have a parallel individual-contributor track where you can achieve a level (that is: seniority, benefits, compensation) analogous to management-track Senior Director or VP.
JamesBarney 8y ago
What were the most important management skills you cultivated to be so successful managing your team?
zerr 8y ago
> That means an 8-10 hour day... Wow, do you work in a sweatshop or some kind of slavery?

by ep103 8y ago

chillydawg 8y ago

The recruitment is definitely a killer. If at all possible, outsource as much of that as you can. To internal recruiters, to engineers in your team, to external recruiters, to a pa you might want to hire to do bits of it.

sailfast 8y ago

Have you tried diving into some gnarly bugs or some off-critical-path items that would help you stay in the code while doing these other things? A manager’s job is typically about building a team as their product, but it’s also important to stay connected to the technical part - both for love and for relevance / humility. Have you asked (if available) someone to help with recruiting? Maybe offload some of the nitty gritty things that you aren’t adding value on to someone that can, or somebody that works for you and is interested in that side of the work? To enjoy every minute of the day requires understanding why you are doing it - to build your team. Connecting back to what it will get you may help. If you’re stuck doing stuff you don’t want to do because somebody above you “said so” (the curse of middle management) then that may make things a lot harder but you may also talk to them to help shape your role into what you want for what they need.

fhbdukfrh 8y ago
I don't think a manager should be grabbing tough bugs unless there is no time sensitivity (so why are you addressing them?) as they never have enough time to complete them and become a blocker. I think your best bet is to do strategic technical spikes and as an output identify deeper areas for your engineers to pursue.

groby_b 8y ago

I'm managing in one form or another for ~12 years, so... somewhat experienced at least, but take with a grain of salt. Does it get better? Maybe. That really depends on what you like. If you find joy in, essentially, coaching & teaching, it's a great job. If you enjoy politics, you'll be OK. If you get your joy from creating, it's much harder. You still create, as a manager. Teams. Processes. Cultures. All things that have incredibly long feedback cycles, nowhere close to writing some code, running it, iterating. I've currently got things in flight that (hopefully) will pay off three years from now. There is no instant success. That said, all the things where I as a dev said "Why on earth are we doing this stupid thing"? I get to fix those. Or, alternatively, to learn why it's not quite so stupid as I thought. Politics will happen, though. Wherever humans interact, there are politics. There are healthy levels, and dysfunctional levels. (Everybody lobbies for their project, but there are plenty of lines they shouldn't cross) Excel sheets will happen, too. After text docs and e-mail, it's your most important tool. (And many of us who came from tech nourish their yearning for building things by scripting the hell out of them, because that's all we get to code) But again, if you like interacting with people, at some point, a switch will flip. You'll have a day of back-to-back meetings about genuinely interesting efforts, and you'll walk out of it thinking "Damn, I can't believe they pay me for just spending a whole day chatting about cool stuff". You'll see the first of your reports stepping into a leadership role. You see a multi-year, multi-team effort come to fruition and can honestly say "would've failed without me bringing the teams together" So yes, it can be enjoyable. It depends on what you want, though. There's nothing wrong with doing a management stint and going back to coding after a few years, either. A lot of front-line managers bounce back and forth between the two sides. Hope that's at least remotely helpful. EDIT: Forgot to say that your place sounds... not quite healthy. It might be a question of finding a company that actually values managing and doesn't have it degenerate into total soul suck. They do exist.

windowsworkstoo 8y ago

Looping back in from my other answer - looking at this, I think you probably know what you want to do, but are still trying to hedge a bet each way. I absolutely empathize - I have been in this exact headspace quite recently. To answer some specifics, from my perspective > I'd love it if a more experienced manager could chime in here and speak to whether or not that really can be enough to power one through the endless meetings, excel reports and politics given time. Yes, of course. Some find meaning and purpose in that and enjoy it. However, I think you do not, not truly. And this is probably why you are keeping a leg in the tech side - especially based on your paragraphs around this one. My suggestion is talk - out loud - to someone about this and resolve what you actually want to do with yourself. And then make a decision. Because being stuck between these two things will tear you up far more than making a potentially "non-optimal" decision (whatever that actually means). As to me - I chose option 3, working for myself as a consultant. I realised that while I love the people aspect, I have some distaste for various aspect of traditionally corporate life. Now I can just swan in, talk game at high and low levels and leave when I need to. Works for me. Might not work for you. This is an intensely personal junction you are at and only you can know the correct answer.

kelnos 8y ago

> it seems similarly risky to just give in and go back to pure code, and give up on this managerial aspect. Why do you say that? It certainly depends on company and industry, but there are many companies that have a parallel individual-contributor track where you can achieve a level (that is: seniority, benefits, compensation) analogous to management-track Senior Director or VP.

JamesBarney 8y ago

What were the most important management skills you cultivated to be so successful managing your team?

zerr 8y ago

> That means an 8-10 hour day... Wow, do you work in a sweatshop or some kind of slavery?