8 ms·

I find the UX on a Mac to be vastly inferior to Mate or Cinnamon on Linux. The first thing I do when an employer gives me a Macbook is to install Linux on it so

I find the UX on a Mac to be vastly inferior to Mate or Cinnamon on Linux. The first thing I do when an employer gives me a Macbook is to install Linux on it so I have an usable UI.

elbrian 8y ago
Hot take. Care to elaborate a little more, for the sake of discussion?
solomatov 8y ago
By UX I include the touchpad. I have a linux XPS13 and their touch pad isn't comparable to what MacBook Pro provides. Interface on Linux isn't that bad now, I agree, but I like Mac more due to better hardware support and lack of problems.
- hosh 8y ago
  I agree. And the touchpad is what is stopping me from say, getting a System76 laptop or an XPS13. I had done some investigation on this before. After all, if System76 is open software and hardware, I should be able to get an add on right? Not so fast. It seems part of what makes the Mac touchpad so good is a combination of software and hardware. Microsoft is taking a stab at this. What they had been doing was treating touchpads as a mouse device ... but the hardware gives hints on gestures, so they have been improving their drivers to allow for better experience with the touchpad. (Rather than emulating a mouse device using a touchpad). The hardware is a bigger block. Apple holds key patents on their touchpad, including the use of textured glass. The glass gives the experience a different feel, but I bet it also smooths out the signals being sent to the software driver. I don't know for sure -- but even say, my Samsung Chromebook, which has a decent touchpad, still doesn't feel the same as my Mac's touchpad. https://appleinsider.com/articles/13/05/14/apple-wins-utility-patent-for-macbooks-trackpad-design https://appleinsider.com/articles/13/05/14/apple-wins-utilit... "More importantly, the patent calls for, in one embodiment, a capacitive track pad with an etched glass surface. Because of its unique properties, and its non-conductive nature, glass allows for high levels of control during the manufacturing process." "For example, traditional glass has a surface with a high friction coefficient, meaning it resists slippage, making it a less than suitable candidate for trackpad use. However, glass can be made to have a low friction coefficient by etching, sand-blasting, honing, or other methods. This makes the surface smooth and easy to navigate with a finger." https://www.howtogeek.com/286905/what-is-a-precision-touchpad-on-windows-pcs/ https://www.howtogeek.com/286905/what-is-a-precision-touchpa... "Traditionally, Windows PC touchpads were implemented in a more one-off way. When you moved your finger across the touchpad, the touchpad driver has to look at the input and convert it to mouse input. The touchpad appears as a normal external mouse—either a USB or PS/2 mouse—to Windows itself. PC manufacturers have to tune the touchpad for their hardware, and the driver is responsible for handling the input. If the touchpad uses multi-finger gestures or has palm rejection support so you don’t accidentally move the cursor while you’re typing, this all has to be implemented by the touchpad driver." "Microsoft decided to move towards a more standard approach starting with Windows 8.1. It created the “precision touchpad” specification along with touchpad company Synaptics. A PC with a “precision touchpad” doesn’t do all the hard work in its own hardware drivers. Instead, it sends the raw touchpad data to Windows itself. Windows is responsible for reading the input and processing the gestures. Windows understands your PC has a touchpad and approaches it intelligently. The touchpad doesn’t just pretend to be a normal mouse."
solomatov 8y ago
BTW, do you have any modifications to the mentioned environments?
solomatov 8y ago
Another problem which I include in UX is sleep mode. On Mac it works flawlessly. On XPS13 + Ubuntu/Fedora (I tried both) which I used, there's non zero probability that when I open laptop again, the battery is almost empty.
- cmurf 8y ago
  Check the logs, is it waking, sleeping, waking, sleeping, waking, sleeping? Power management bugs are super annoying because they are tedious to dig into. In my very obscure case, I got lucky in that suspend was working, then stopped working after a kernel update. Since it was a regression, kernel developers were more interested in tracking down the problem and I was able to find a work around: write PWRB to /proc/acpi/wakeup The gory details are here, which I expect is so obscure it's not your problem, but shows as tedious as it is, filing bugs with a decently good bug report and willingness to do the work devs need you to do can be worth it. https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185521 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185521
  - solomatov 8y ago
    I honestly tried my best to debug it. I installed different tools, and at some point it seemed to work, but after some time, due to some updates, it broke down. Some time after this, I just stopped using sleep mode. It was easier to turn on/off the whole machine. XPS13 which I have is one of the most widely used linux laptops, and it a symptomatic that it doesn't work well.
    - mverwijs 8y ago
      Known problem. Here's the workarounds I use: https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/xps-13-9370-wakes-from-sleep-randomly/17877/2 https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/xps-13-9370-wakes-from-sleep... and https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029474/ubuntu-18-04-dell-xps13-9370-no-longer-suspends-on-lid-close https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029474/ubuntu-18-04-dell-xp... In addition, I always use a pre-sleep script that disables bluetooth. And enables it afterwards. Hope it helps!
  - 8y ago

I find the UX on a Mac to be vastly inferior to Mate or Cinnamon on Linux. The first thing I do when an employer gives me a Macbook is to install Linux on it so I have an usable UI.

elbrian 8y ago

Hot take. Care to elaborate a little more, for the sake of discussion?

solomatov 8y ago

By UX I include the touchpad. I have a linux XPS13 and their touch pad isn't comparable to what MacBook Pro provides. Interface on Linux isn't that bad now, I agree, but I like Mac more due to better hardware support and lack of problems.

hosh 8y ago
I agree. And the touchpad is what is stopping me from say, getting a System76 laptop or an XPS13. I had done some investigation on this before. After all, if System76 is open software and hardware, I should be able to get an add on right? Not so fast. It seems part of what makes the Mac touchpad so good is a combination of software and hardware. Microsoft is taking a stab at this. What they had been doing was treating touchpads as a mouse device ... but the hardware gives hints on gestures, so they have been improving their drivers to allow for better experience with the touchpad. (Rather than emulating a mouse device using a touchpad). The hardware is a bigger block. Apple holds key patents on their touchpad, including the use of textured glass. The glass gives the experience a different feel, but I bet it also smooths out the signals being sent to the software driver. I don't know for sure -- but even say, my Samsung Chromebook, which has a decent touchpad, still doesn't feel the same as my Mac's touchpad. https://appleinsider.com/articles/13/05/14/apple-wins-utility-patent-for-macbooks-trackpad-design https://appleinsider.com/articles/13/05/14/apple-wins-utilit... "More importantly, the patent calls for, in one embodiment, a capacitive track pad with an etched glass surface. Because of its unique properties, and its non-conductive nature, glass allows for high levels of control during the manufacturing process." "For example, traditional glass has a surface with a high friction coefficient, meaning it resists slippage, making it a less than suitable candidate for trackpad use. However, glass can be made to have a low friction coefficient by etching, sand-blasting, honing, or other methods. This makes the surface smooth and easy to navigate with a finger." https://www.howtogeek.com/286905/what-is-a-precision-touchpad-on-windows-pcs/ https://www.howtogeek.com/286905/what-is-a-precision-touchpa... "Traditionally, Windows PC touchpads were implemented in a more one-off way. When you moved your finger across the touchpad, the touchpad driver has to look at the input and convert it to mouse input. The touchpad appears as a normal external mouse—either a USB or PS/2 mouse—to Windows itself. PC manufacturers have to tune the touchpad for their hardware, and the driver is responsible for handling the input. If the touchpad uses multi-finger gestures or has palm rejection support so you don’t accidentally move the cursor while you’re typing, this all has to be implemented by the touchpad driver." "Microsoft decided to move towards a more standard approach starting with Windows 8.1. It created the “precision touchpad” specification along with touchpad company Synaptics. A PC with a “precision touchpad” doesn’t do all the hard work in its own hardware drivers. Instead, it sends the raw touchpad data to Windows itself. Windows is responsible for reading the input and processing the gestures. Windows understands your PC has a touchpad and approaches it intelligently. The touchpad doesn’t just pretend to be a normal mouse."

solomatov 8y ago

BTW, do you have any modifications to the mentioned environments?

solomatov 8y ago

Another problem which I include in UX is sleep mode. On Mac it works flawlessly. On XPS13 + Ubuntu/Fedora (I tried both) which I used, there's non zero probability that when I open laptop again, the battery is almost empty.

cmurf 8y ago
Check the logs, is it waking, sleeping, waking, sleeping, waking, sleeping? Power management bugs are super annoying because they are tedious to dig into. In my very obscure case, I got lucky in that suspend was working, then stopped working after a kernel update. Since it was a regression, kernel developers were more interested in tracking down the problem and I was able to find a work around: write PWRB to /proc/acpi/wakeup The gory details are here, which I expect is so obscure it's not your problem, but shows as tedious as it is, filing bugs with a decently good bug report and willingness to do the work devs need you to do can be worth it. https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185521 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185521
- solomatov 8y ago
  I honestly tried my best to debug it. I installed different tools, and at some point it seemed to work, but after some time, due to some updates, it broke down. Some time after this, I just stopped using sleep mode. It was easier to turn on/off the whole machine. XPS13 which I have is one of the most widely used linux laptops, and it a symptomatic that it doesn't work well.
  - mverwijs 8y ago
    Known problem. Here's the workarounds I use: https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/xps-13-9370-wakes-from-sleep-randomly/17877/2 https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/xps-13-9370-wakes-from-sleep... and https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029474/ubuntu-18-04-dell-xps13-9370-no-longer-suspends-on-lid-close https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029474/ubuntu-18-04-dell-xp... In addition, I always use a pre-sleep script that disables bluetooth. And enables it afterwards. Hope it helps!
- 8y ago