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This is an overprescribed and oversold lesson that might be more harmful than good. On the one hand, he is trying to teach people the importance of empathy and

This is an overprescribed and oversold lesson that might be more harmful than good. On the one hand, he is trying to teach people the importance of empathy and perspective taking for any creative individual. But on the other, if you believe that no one cares about X, then you are less likely to begin creating X. You are also less likely to get emotionally involved in the first place which might do more harm. The opposite message might be a better one. There are always advocates for your products, writing, etc. who want you to succeed. Your goal is to find these advocates and work with them to create something that they love so much that they tell others and help you to increase the number of advocates. If you can build a little cult around your work and then expand it, then maybe there will be people willing to read your shit after all.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
baxtr 8y ago
Agreed. Reminds me of this: https://seths.blog/2019/03/the-minimum-viable-audience-2/ https://seths.blog/2019/03/the-minimum-viable-audience-2/
alehul 8y ago
> if you believe that no one cares about X, then you are less likely to begin creating X A great read on that point: http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html
- twoquestions 8y ago
  > In a hundred subtle ways, the city sends you a message Keep this in mind, especially if you live in a place where nothing good ever happens. Good post!
lostctown 8y ago
Like all lessons, it depends on the student. Personally, the author's way of thinking has been immensely helpful. I grew up an optimist, not able to understand why others couldn't see things the way that I did. After a few failed product/content launches and a few years of grinding later my self-bullshit meter is way more sensitive. This has led to me producing better products, features, and generally more success in my work life. Like the author, I assume no one wants to use my stuff at the outset, and this forces me to fight to overcome this. But again, it's probably more a function of who this advice is given to. I've seen plenty of people get discouraged after making this realization. The key is to be aware that no one cares and then do it anyways.
- kodz4 8y ago
  Passing judgments ('no one care') on others, has it's own costs down the line. You make it harder for yourself to respect or trust people if it is your starting point. You can rephrase your approach to - searching for people who meet my needs, while I am able to meet theirs. No judgements required.
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  As an optimist, you could realize that nobody wanting to read your stuff isn't because you suck, it's just because everybody's too busy to give a shit, and not about you personally. (It doesn't rule out you sucking, but nobody wanting to read your stuff isn't a reason to get discouraged.)
  - danenania 8y ago
    Right, this is how I think about it. For the most part, when people ignore you or are apathetic to what you’re doing, it’s not because they have any negative feeings toward you or your creation, but because they are busy and self-absorbed (like all of us), and are likely bombarded by ads and pitches from all angles. Plus everyone is already using 20 saas tools and has 100 books on their reading list and replies to 50 emails per day and so on. Our attention is extremely over-saturated. Being is this state creates a strong bias against even considering adding another new thing to the pile, so the bar is just very high to get a typical person to care. That’s why it’s better to not seek out typical people in the beginning, but early adopter types who actually like trying all the new things.
lubujackson 8y ago
I don't think people who create things are generally dissuaded by this advice or they probably wouldn't be creating in the first place. You kind of have to be an engine of positivity to self-motivate in the first place, which is why falling in love with your own bullshit is a common trap. And the point isn't that what you made is shit, it's that hearing/reading about it is shit. I don't think that's a negative mentality if you frame it right: how do you get them to see your creation is valuable to them in the fewest words/least effort? So much good comes from that mindset, including finding your product's key selling point and competitive advantage.
- blotter_paper 8y ago
  > I don't think people who create things are generally dissuaded by this advice or they probably wouldn't be creating in the first place. You kind of have to be an engine of positivity to self-motivate in the first place, which is why falling in love with your own bullshit is a common trap. Hmm, I've anecdotally known some people, myself included, who have gone through dramatic ups and downs of in terms of creative output which correlated with swings in mood/depression. Sometimes creative output is even negative; I've burned more poetry than I've saved. I can imagine people's creative output being negatively affected by well-meaning advice. Edit: s/input/output
dunkelheit 8y ago
I dunno. For example, common advice for software engineers is that they should blog. As a result I've come across a lot of blogs that totally lack engaging content. Presumably the authors followed this advice but forgot to actually try to make their writing interesting, useful and fun - that's what the motivational articles don't tell you, presumably to avoid discouraging you from publishing your stuff if you find it not worthy. Is the world a better place as a result? Besides, if you go into this world expecting that there will always be someone who wants you to succeed (besides your mom), you are in for some harsh disappointment. But with the opposite mindset each additional reader/user is an unexpected delight.
gridlockd 8y ago
> But on the other, if you believe that no one cares about X, then you are less likely to begin creating X. You are also less likely to get emotionally involved in the first place which might do more harm. "Nobody cares about X" is not the message. The message is, to paraphrase, nobody wants to spent time reading all the shit you have to say about X that isn't important to them. So if your ad (or blog post, whatever) doesn't cut out all the non-essential crap, they will move on.
ppseafield 8y ago
I think the target audience of this quote is aimed at marketing folks tasked with selling people on specific, already manufactured products / existing services. While this work can be creative, I don't think it has the same kind of impetus as something someone might create because they want to create it. Here's the context of the quote. > Here’s the #1 lesson you learn working in advertising (and this has stuck with me, to my advantage, my whole working life): > Nobody wants to read your shit. > Let me repeat that. Nobody–not even your dog or your mother–has the slightest interest in your commercial for Rice Krispies or Delco batteries or Preparation H. Nor does anybody care about your one-act play, your Facebook page or your new sesame chicken joint at Canal and Tchopotoulis.
twoquestions 8y ago
At least in my experience, it's been helpful to assume the absolute worst when you try to make something. If you assume they'll hate it and hate you, it gives an incentive to get so good that only insane people will try to hurt you if you show them something you've made.
coldtea 8y ago
>But on the other, if you believe that no one cares about X, then you are less likely to begin creating X. That's an added benefit. We have too much X already. If someone is so easily dissuaded, then them backing out and reducing total X is for the better. Let's just those who absolutely can't do without creating X, create X.
pram 8y ago
If you’re not selling a thing, and your artistic/creative work is mostly as a hobby, I don’t see the problem with being self indulgent. People might not care, but so what? It’s more compelling long-term to work on something you truly love than trying to figure out what people may like. It feels even better when someone ultimately ends up liking your uncompromised personal vision anyway.
Theodores 8y ago
I didn't see any mention of the customer, as in of the end-user variety. The client is the customer but the client's customers are the real customers that matter. Sometimes you need to write your own s4it and then test it out. You might find that it is just a matter of not using their language. We classify products in numerous ways - or the client does - but the customer just thinks of widgets. They haven't a clue for what a 'contemporary widget' is or the difference between a 'vintage' and an 'antique' widget is. They just want a widget. Whittling down your copy might be the wrong way to go, sometimes the copy is needed but the language needs to speak to the customer. If it is in their language then you stand half a chance. There is also an aspect to this that concerns 'dumbing down'. As you mention there could be fans who want to know it all, you have to write for them too. One thing is that on the web we are not restricted to physical space like how a newspaper is. So specifications can be tucked away or the story can be tucked away. If you are reading a recipe you might want to hide the list of ingredients or the method if the bit people want to know about is the eating. Too often a visual design process for the web strips content out rather than think through how to tuck information away in such a way that it is engaging content.
kradroy 8y ago
> On the one hand, he is trying to teach people the importance of empathy and perspective taking for any creative individual. This is the bridge that connects the two: person who doesn't care to read a message - person who wants people to care about a message. That bridge needs to be built for each message. Furthermore, sometimes the message-sender doesn't have the choice to opt not to create X (i.e. it's their job to). So you're safer assuming no one wants to read your shit. Case in point. My husband is applying for jobs right now. He's not getting any responses other than generic GFY form letters. I looked at his resume and said it was poorly formatted. I would click decline/next if I reviewed it. I know this because I'm a hiring manager who just went through 250 resumes for a position I need to fill. I'm trying to teach him to have empathy for the reader: recruiters/HMs have hundreds of candidates to review and they're strapped for time. Make it easy for them to click "yes" by using the fewest words and best formatting to say "I have the experience to do this job, and I will do it well." To your second point: he could find advocates by networking and going to job fairs to meet recruiters in person. You generally have more than 10 seconds to impress in that situation. But that's a second facet to messaging strategy that's independent of the "no one wants to read your shit" aspect. Doing both is necessary to have your message heard.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

baxtr 8y ago

Agreed. Reminds me of this: https://seths.blog/2019/03/the-minimum-viable-audience-2/ https://seths.blog/2019/03/the-minimum-viable-audience-2/

alehul 8y ago

> if you believe that no one cares about X, then you are less likely to begin creating X A great read on that point: http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html

twoquestions 8y ago
> In a hundred subtle ways, the city sends you a message Keep this in mind, especially if you live in a place where nothing good ever happens. Good post!

lostctown 8y ago

Like all lessons, it depends on the student. Personally, the author's way of thinking has been immensely helpful. I grew up an optimist, not able to understand why others couldn't see things the way that I did. After a few failed product/content launches and a few years of grinding later my self-bullshit meter is way more sensitive. This has led to me producing better products, features, and generally more success in my work life. Like the author, I assume no one wants to use my stuff at the outset, and this forces me to fight to overcome this. But again, it's probably more a function of who this advice is given to. I've seen plenty of people get discouraged after making this realization. The key is to be aware that no one cares and then do it anyways.

kodz4 8y ago
Passing judgments ('no one care') on others, has it's own costs down the line. You make it harder for yourself to respect or trust people if it is your starting point. You can rephrase your approach to - searching for people who meet my needs, while I am able to meet theirs. No judgements required.
DonHopkins 8y ago
As an optimist, you could realize that nobody wanting to read your stuff isn't because you suck, it's just because everybody's too busy to give a shit, and not about you personally. (It doesn't rule out you sucking, but nobody wanting to read your stuff isn't a reason to get discouraged.)
- danenania 8y ago
  Right, this is how I think about it. For the most part, when people ignore you or are apathetic to what you’re doing, it’s not because they have any negative feeings toward you or your creation, but because they are busy and self-absorbed (like all of us), and are likely bombarded by ads and pitches from all angles. Plus everyone is already using 20 saas tools and has 100 books on their reading list and replies to 50 emails per day and so on. Our attention is extremely over-saturated. Being is this state creates a strong bias against even considering adding another new thing to the pile, so the bar is just very high to get a typical person to care. That’s why it’s better to not seek out typical people in the beginning, but early adopter types who actually like trying all the new things.

lubujackson 8y ago

I don't think people who create things are generally dissuaded by this advice or they probably wouldn't be creating in the first place. You kind of have to be an engine of positivity to self-motivate in the first place, which is why falling in love with your own bullshit is a common trap. And the point isn't that what you made is shit, it's that hearing/reading about it is shit. I don't think that's a negative mentality if you frame it right: how do you get them to see your creation is valuable to them in the fewest words/least effort? So much good comes from that mindset, including finding your product's key selling point and competitive advantage.

blotter_paper 8y ago
> I don't think people who create things are generally dissuaded by this advice or they probably wouldn't be creating in the first place. You kind of have to be an engine of positivity to self-motivate in the first place, which is why falling in love with your own bullshit is a common trap. Hmm, I've anecdotally known some people, myself included, who have gone through dramatic ups and downs of in terms of creative output which correlated with swings in mood/depression. Sometimes creative output is even negative; I've burned more poetry than I've saved. I can imagine people's creative output being negatively affected by well-meaning advice. Edit: s/input/output

dunkelheit 8y ago

I dunno. For example, common advice for software engineers is that they should blog. As a result I've come across a lot of blogs that totally lack engaging content. Presumably the authors followed this advice but forgot to actually try to make their writing interesting, useful and fun - that's what the motivational articles don't tell you, presumably to avoid discouraging you from publishing your stuff if you find it not worthy. Is the world a better place as a result? Besides, if you go into this world expecting that there will always be someone who wants you to succeed (besides your mom), you are in for some harsh disappointment. But with the opposite mindset each additional reader/user is an unexpected delight.

gridlockd 8y ago

> But on the other, if you believe that no one cares about X, then you are less likely to begin creating X. You are also less likely to get emotionally involved in the first place which might do more harm. "Nobody cares about X" is not the message. The message is, to paraphrase, nobody wants to spent time reading all the shit you have to say about X that isn't important to them. So if your ad (or blog post, whatever) doesn't cut out all the non-essential crap, they will move on.

ppseafield 8y ago

I think the target audience of this quote is aimed at marketing folks tasked with selling people on specific, already manufactured products / existing services. While this work can be creative, I don't think it has the same kind of impetus as something someone might create because they want to create it. Here's the context of the quote. > Here’s the #1 lesson you learn working in advertising (and this has stuck with me, to my advantage, my whole working life): > Nobody wants to read your shit. > Let me repeat that. Nobody–not even your dog or your mother–has the slightest interest in your commercial for Rice Krispies or Delco batteries or Preparation H. Nor does anybody care about your one-act play, your Facebook page or your new sesame chicken joint at Canal and Tchopotoulis.

twoquestions 8y ago

At least in my experience, it's been helpful to assume the absolute worst when you try to make something. If you assume they'll hate it and hate you, it gives an incentive to get so good that only insane people will try to hurt you if you show them something you've made.

coldtea 8y ago

>But on the other, if you believe that no one cares about X, then you are less likely to begin creating X. That's an added benefit. We have too much X already. If someone is so easily dissuaded, then them backing out and reducing total X is for the better. Let's just those who absolutely can't do without creating X, create X.

pram 8y ago

If you’re not selling a thing, and your artistic/creative work is mostly as a hobby, I don’t see the problem with being self indulgent. People might not care, but so what? It’s more compelling long-term to work on something you truly love than trying to figure out what people may like. It feels even better when someone ultimately ends up liking your uncompromised personal vision anyway.

Theodores 8y ago

I didn't see any mention of the customer, as in of the end-user variety. The client is the customer but the client's customers are the real customers that matter. Sometimes you need to write your own s4it and then test it out. You might find that it is just a matter of not using their language. We classify products in numerous ways - or the client does - but the customer just thinks of widgets. They haven't a clue for what a 'contemporary widget' is or the difference between a 'vintage' and an 'antique' widget is. They just want a widget. Whittling down your copy might be the wrong way to go, sometimes the copy is needed but the language needs to speak to the customer. If it is in their language then you stand half a chance. There is also an aspect to this that concerns 'dumbing down'. As you mention there could be fans who want to know it all, you have to write for them too. One thing is that on the web we are not restricted to physical space like how a newspaper is. So specifications can be tucked away or the story can be tucked away. If you are reading a recipe you might want to hide the list of ingredients or the method if the bit people want to know about is the eating. Too often a visual design process for the web strips content out rather than think through how to tuck information away in such a way that it is engaging content.

kradroy 8y ago

> On the one hand, he is trying to teach people the importance of empathy and perspective taking for any creative individual. This is the bridge that connects the two: person who doesn't care to read a message - person who wants people to care about a message. That bridge needs to be built for each message. Furthermore, sometimes the message-sender doesn't have the choice to opt not to create X (i.e. it's their job to). So you're safer assuming no one wants to read your shit. Case in point. My husband is applying for jobs right now. He's not getting any responses other than generic GFY form letters. I looked at his resume and said it was poorly formatted. I would click decline/next if I reviewed it. I know this because I'm a hiring manager who just went through 250 resumes for a position I need to fill. I'm trying to teach him to have empathy for the reader: recruiters/HMs have hundreds of candidates to review and they're strapped for time. Make it easy for them to click "yes" by using the fewest words and best formatting to say "I have the experience to do this job, and I will do it well." To your second point: he could find advocates by networking and going to job fairs to meet recruiters in person. You generally have more than 10 seconds to impress in that situation. But that's a second facet to messaging strategy that's independent of the "no one wants to read your shit" aspect. Doing both is necessary to have your message heard.