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Not mentioned - that they can pay far less for these workers by dint of the much lower minimum wage for disabled persons. The NW Center has been cited in the p

Not mentioned - that they can pay far less for these workers by dint of the much lower minimum wage for disabled persons. The NW Center has been cited in the past for such underpayment. https://patch.com/washington/seattle/nonprofit-underpaid-disabled-workers-seattle-labor-office https://patch.com/washington/seattle/nonprofit-underpaid-dis...

goda90 8y ago
I was going to say. It's good to provide opportunities and accomodations for disabled people, but to expect this to be altruistic on the part of Amazon is naive. They've done the math and think the accommodations won't counteract the gains from being able to pay less, and get some PR.
- julianozen 8y ago
  > Likewise, Northwest Center employees and those it places with Amazon are paid at least minimum wage. (Seattle closed a loophole in its minimum wage law that allowed employers to pay people with a disability a sub-minimum wage and recovered back wages from Northwest Center in 2018. This was mentioned and it is implied that amazon is not paying these employees less > employees placed at Amazon by Northwest Center chalked up a productivity rate that was 98 percent of the average while achieving 37 percent better quality work than the general population, and with a perfect safety record, compared with a 1.1 percent warehouse incident rate. They also had better attendance. This sounds like a pretty big win Disclaimer: I am a former amazon employee
  - joker3 8y ago
    If they don't come out and say that Amazon's not paying these employees a lower wage, then I'm not going to place a lot of faith in any implication.
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      Direct quotes from the article, emphasis mine: > “I’m grateful to actually have gotten a job,” Howard said during a work break. “It’s just part time, but even still, it’s a good job. … I’m making above minimum wage.” > Likewise, Northwest Center employees and those it places with Amazon are paid at least minimum wage. (Seattle closed a loophole in its minimum wage law that allowed employers to pay people with a disability a sub-minimum wage and recovered back wages from Northwest Center in 2018. Washington and many other states still allow minimum wage waivers.)
      - atdrummond 8y ago
        So I wasn't intending to imply any specifics about Amazon's wage situation. That said, when I read that article, I assumed this referred to the federal minimum wage for sheltered workshop employees (which is a few dollars) rather than Seattle's minimum wage or the federal minimum of $10.35/hour. The latter wage is more important as the NC has claimed its workers are contractors and therefore only federal disability and wage laws apply.
- cheeze 8y ago
  I think it's okay to have both though. If they can find more profit by employing folks with disabilities, that's a net good. And why shouldn't they get some good PR out of it? Nothing wrong with that IMO.
  - atdrummond 8y ago
    As the GP to that reply, I agree. Wasn't my intent to imply otherwise. I should have been more precise in my reply.
- notyourwork 8y ago
  So we shouldn’t employ disabled people? Why does everything have to have a negative spin? A business wants to profit, silly to think otherwise. I guess because of their greed we should be cynical of times when big business provide opportunity.
  - pornel 8y ago
    We absolutely should employ disabled people. However, Amazon has a history of aggressively exploiting workers who have little bargaining power.
    - atdrummond 8y ago
      I welcome expanded opportunities for disabled persons. However, being familiar with the NC's past history regarding disabled employment, I had a degree or skepticism regarding the implementation.
- tracer4201 8y ago
  How did you make the jump to concluding that Amazon is doing this because of some greedy or nefarious purpose? Is it possible there could be management anywhere at Amazon who cares about this segment of the workforce? I guess - without any further information, why spread this negativity? I don’t understand the agenda here. My personal experience with shopping Amazon and AWS has been generally really good. Even if you’re has not been good, how do you extrapolate to Amazon people all being part of some evil conspiracy?
  - atdrummond 8y ago
    I don't have an agenda. As a disabled person myself, I welcome expanded employment opportunities for disabled persons.
  - goda90 8y ago
    I wouldn't call it nefarious, but corporations operate on greed. As another comment points out, it's probably a good thing that society can get this greed targeted towards improving the situation for people who might otherwise be marginalized. I'd say my agenda would be to encourage a healthy skepticism of every good thing you hear about a corporation. Amazon has had bad press regarding how they treat warehouse workers. If we're too busy praising them for this, are we missing out on places where the greed leads to bad things?
- natalyarostova 8y ago
  That's great -- it means the system works! If you can induce societally positive outcomes from greedy amoral people working in their own selfish interests, that's a signal that the social-system has been very well designed.
  - atdrummond 8y ago
    I have no disagreements with that.
devoply 8y ago
Yeah I would be worried about exploitation of disabled people.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
samfriedman 8y ago
It appears this is no longer the case: https://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2018/4/3/seattle-employers-must-now-pay-people-with-disabilities-minimum-wage https://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2018/4/3/seattle-employe... >City officials adopted the language for subminimum wage for people with disabilities in 2015 in its minimum wage law. That language had been modeled off the State Minimum Wage Act, which allows for “special certificates” that can be issued if someone has a disability. >In September, the Seattle Office of Labor Standards stopped issuing those certificates based on the director’s rules. The bill, which passed through council member Teresa Mosqueda’s committee late March, officially changed the code to remove the option altogether. The nonprofit that got fined was due to their underpaying workers without the previously-necessary certificate.
- atdrummond 8y ago
  I'm not quite sure why my reply attracted such significant attention but a few things: 1. There are loopholes around paying minimum wage that are separate from the core subminimum wage legislation. The sheltered workshop exemption is federal disability law. If the location uses this exemption, then they can employ the workers as contractors and the federal law applies. (If not using the sheltered workshop exemption, such contracted workers must be paid $10.35 per hour.) 2. My understanding is that Amazon started this program before the 2015 reform and has expanded its scope over the years. 3. I didn't mean to imply Amazon paid subminimum wage, as I don't know the wages. (Although the quote in the story is unclear as to whether the minimum wage being referred to is the shelter exemption rate or Seattle's minimum.) My main intent (as a former Seattle tech founder) was to relay the disappointing background of their partner. I was not attacking the integrity of the program and apologize it came off that way.
SilasX 8y ago
Even if true[1], so what? The exemptions exist specifically to encourage employers to look for ways to make use of the labor of disabled persons, in the hopes that it can lead to discovery of sustainable work that doesn't need an advantage, or at least help such people feel useful (which is important for self-esteem). This "gotcha" is like saying, "$CARMAKER is only investing in electric cars because such autos get tax subsidies." Well, yeah. Public policy encourages things that are underproduced relative to the social optimum. That's why you need public policy to do it, and not regular businesspeople. We have a term for where no one does anything good because the public will ridicule them for not having 100% pure motives: hell. [1] a sibling reply suggests this exemption has been phased out
- atdrummond 8y ago
  As I explained above, my intent was not at all to ridicule or insult the programme. Instead, I was aware of the NC's track record in the area and had a few concerns. As a disabled person myself, I'm all for expanding workplace opportunities. As for the exemption for subminimum wage, the NC's arguments in the past have been that only federal wage and disability law applies to them, as the workers are contractors. As a result, if the sheltered workshop exemption is properly applied, the workers are only eligible for a few dollars per hour. If that federal disability exemption applies, workers only earn a few dollars per hour. Otherwise, they earn $10.35.
  - SilasX 8y ago
    >As I explained above, my intent was not at all to ridicule or insult the programme. Instead, I was aware of the NC's track record in the area and had a few concerns. As a disabled person myself, I'm all for expanding workplace opportunities. Then re-read your comment and considering whether that's the impression you can expect someone to take away from it.
    - atdrummond 8y ago
      I've already apologised and clarified. I'm not sure what continuing to browbeat me about it accomplishes.
bobthepanda 8y ago
From the article, emphasis mine > “I’m grateful to actually have gotten a job,” Howard said during a work break. “It’s just part time, but even still, it’s a good job. … I’m making above minimum wage.” > Likewise, Northwest Center employees and those it places with Amazon are paid at least minimum wage. (Seattle closed a loophole in its minimum wage law that allowed employers to pay people with a disability a sub-minimum wage and recovered back wages from Northwest Center in 2018. Washington and many other states still allow minimum wage waivers.)
- atdrummond 8y ago
  As mentioned above, I was unclear as to whether the minimum wage in the article refers to Seattle's or the sheltered workshop exemption minimum wage. The NC used this exemption in the past and claimed the workers were contractors - and therefore only beholden to federal wage and disability laws. As long as they (Amazon and the NC) properly established the business as a sheltered workshop, workers would be looking at a few dollars an hour. Otherwise the federal minimum of $10.35 applies.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    Given that the article refers to the sheltered workshop as "sub-minimum wage", I take the verbiage to mean that they are paid the Seattle minimum wage.
basseq 8y ago
Interesting that we—and I include myself, too—are immediately skeptical of anything other than Amazon finding some "immoral" way to squeeze more juice from the lemon that is the American workforce. It is worth noting that the person with disabilities is quoted as saying he makes "above minimum wage". Likewise, later in the article: > Likewise, Northwest Center employees and those it places with Amazon are paid at least minimum wage. And indeed, I suspect this is the "double-bottom line" motive. Community impact is all well and good, but it has to serve the business as well. In this case, it's good PR, but it's also tapping a new talent pool to hire from. An Amazon rep is quoted saying same: >... “a hybrid of a business need and a philanthropic opportunity.”
- 908087 8y ago
  From the article, it sounds like they only started paying them minimum wage after they were legally forced to in 2018. This wasn't something Northwest Center or Amazon decided to do on their own.
- atdrummond 8y ago
  I was skeptical not due to Amazon but rather the involvement of the NC. I also am not sure which minimum wage is being referred to - the sheltered workshop wage (a few dollars per hour and federal law, not the state subminimum law), the Seattle minimum wage or the federal minimum ($10.35 and only applies with the sheltered workshop exemption.) Since the NC was caught violating state and city laws, they've claimed they don't have to comply with said regulations as their workers are contractors and only federal disability and wage law applies to them. In that case, the minimum is $10.35 - unless the sheltered workshop exemption is invoked, in which case the wage is a few dollars per hour. Those few dollars are still above the statutory subminimum wage, so the quote could refer to the sheltered workshop wage and still be true.
i_am_proteus 8y ago
Even if they're paid below minimum wage, what's wrong with that? For some mental disabilities, expecting economic output above minimum wage is unrealistic. But these are still human beings who have social wants and c. 16 waking hours every day. If they're unemployable at minimum wage, all they have to do is occupy themselves with extremely cheap leisure-- because they can't afford anything else. I have a mentally disabled family member who used to have a below-minimum-wage sorting job at a direct mail place. The wage laws changed and that dried up. My family is able to support him, but he spends a lot of time walking around and mumbling to himself. He seemed happier when he had somewhere to go and something to do. Of course, it's not easy to understand his perspective. Please consider that, in some circumstances, a company hiring severely disabled people below minimum wage is making a positive contribution to society.
- atdrummond 8y ago
  I'm disabled myself. I don't disagree with the contention in your last paragraph. That said, as a former founder from Seattle, I'm quite aware of the NC's shenanigans. If there's scope to pay the proper minimum wage to these employees ($10.35 based on the NC's arguments that only federal disability and wage laws apply to them) then I'd prefer to see that happen. As it stands, if one assumes the NC's stance on contractor wages to be correct, the disabled workers could still be paid a few dollars per hour. This would still be above the subminimum wage, so the article's quote about being above the minimum wage would still be accurate. But these workers would be missing out on $7-8 dollars per hour that federal wage law demands they be paid.
  - i_am_proteus 8y ago
    I get your perspective, but disability is a continuum. As a founder, you're not really the disabled population I'm thinking of. I'm technically disabled myself, but entirely able to earn a good living. There are some disabled people, though, who can't provide $10.35/hr in economic benefit. If the "full" minimum wage is applied to them, it's much more likely that they end up with nothing to do than they end up making those extra $7-8/hr. Businesses are not charities and will we shouldn't expect them to behave as such. If our society wants to provide for a disadvantaged group, straightforward taxation and redistribution is a much more fair way to accomplish that goal than enacting a wage minimum.

goda90 8y ago

I was going to say. It's good to provide opportunities and accomodations for disabled people, but to expect this to be altruistic on the part of Amazon is naive. They've done the math and think the accommodations won't counteract the gains from being able to pay less, and get some PR.

julianozen 8y ago
> Likewise, Northwest Center employees and those it places with Amazon are paid at least minimum wage. (Seattle closed a loophole in its minimum wage law that allowed employers to pay people with a disability a sub-minimum wage and recovered back wages from Northwest Center in 2018. This was mentioned and it is implied that amazon is not paying these employees less > employees placed at Amazon by Northwest Center chalked up a productivity rate that was 98 percent of the average while achieving 37 percent better quality work than the general population, and with a perfect safety record, compared with a 1.1 percent warehouse incident rate. They also had better attendance. This sounds like a pretty big win Disclaimer: I am a former amazon employee
- joker3 8y ago
  If they don't come out and say that Amazon's not paying these employees a lower wage, then I'm not going to place a lot of faith in any implication.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    Direct quotes from the article, emphasis mine: > “I’m grateful to actually have gotten a job,” Howard said during a work break. “It’s just part time, but even still, it’s a good job. … I’m making above minimum wage.” > Likewise, Northwest Center employees and those it places with Amazon are paid at least minimum wage. (Seattle closed a loophole in its minimum wage law that allowed employers to pay people with a disability a sub-minimum wage and recovered back wages from Northwest Center in 2018. Washington and many other states still allow minimum wage waivers.)
    - atdrummond 8y ago
      So I wasn't intending to imply any specifics about Amazon's wage situation. That said, when I read that article, I assumed this referred to the federal minimum wage for sheltered workshop employees (which is a few dollars) rather than Seattle's minimum wage or the federal minimum of $10.35/hour. The latter wage is more important as the NC has claimed its workers are contractors and therefore only federal disability and wage laws apply.
cheeze 8y ago
I think it's okay to have both though. If they can find more profit by employing folks with disabilities, that's a net good. And why shouldn't they get some good PR out of it? Nothing wrong with that IMO.
- atdrummond 8y ago
  As the GP to that reply, I agree. Wasn't my intent to imply otherwise. I should have been more precise in my reply.
notyourwork 8y ago
So we shouldn’t employ disabled people? Why does everything have to have a negative spin? A business wants to profit, silly to think otherwise. I guess because of their greed we should be cynical of times when big business provide opportunity.
- pornel 8y ago
  We absolutely should employ disabled people. However, Amazon has a history of aggressively exploiting workers who have little bargaining power.
  - atdrummond 8y ago
    I welcome expanded opportunities for disabled persons. However, being familiar with the NC's past history regarding disabled employment, I had a degree or skepticism regarding the implementation.
tracer4201 8y ago
How did you make the jump to concluding that Amazon is doing this because of some greedy or nefarious purpose? Is it possible there could be management anywhere at Amazon who cares about this segment of the workforce? I guess - without any further information, why spread this negativity? I don’t understand the agenda here. My personal experience with shopping Amazon and AWS has been generally really good. Even if you’re has not been good, how do you extrapolate to Amazon people all being part of some evil conspiracy?
- atdrummond 8y ago
  I don't have an agenda. As a disabled person myself, I welcome expanded employment opportunities for disabled persons.
- goda90 8y ago
  I wouldn't call it nefarious, but corporations operate on greed. As another comment points out, it's probably a good thing that society can get this greed targeted towards improving the situation for people who might otherwise be marginalized. I'd say my agenda would be to encourage a healthy skepticism of every good thing you hear about a corporation. Amazon has had bad press regarding how they treat warehouse workers. If we're too busy praising them for this, are we missing out on places where the greed leads to bad things?
natalyarostova 8y ago
That's great -- it means the system works! If you can induce societally positive outcomes from greedy amoral people working in their own selfish interests, that's a signal that the social-system has been very well designed.
- atdrummond 8y ago
  I have no disagreements with that.

devoply 8y ago

Yeah I would be worried about exploitation of disabled people.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

samfriedman 8y ago

It appears this is no longer the case: https://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2018/4/3/seattle-employers-must-now-pay-people-with-disabilities-minimum-wage https://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2018/4/3/seattle-employe... >City officials adopted the language for subminimum wage for people with disabilities in 2015 in its minimum wage law. That language had been modeled off the State Minimum Wage Act, which allows for “special certificates” that can be issued if someone has a disability. >In September, the Seattle Office of Labor Standards stopped issuing those certificates based on the director’s rules. The bill, which passed through council member Teresa Mosqueda’s committee late March, officially changed the code to remove the option altogether. The nonprofit that got fined was due to their underpaying workers without the previously-necessary certificate.

atdrummond 8y ago
I'm not quite sure why my reply attracted such significant attention but a few things: 1. There are loopholes around paying minimum wage that are separate from the core subminimum wage legislation. The sheltered workshop exemption is federal disability law. If the location uses this exemption, then they can employ the workers as contractors and the federal law applies. (If not using the sheltered workshop exemption, such contracted workers must be paid $10.35 per hour.) 2. My understanding is that Amazon started this program before the 2015 reform and has expanded its scope over the years. 3. I didn't mean to imply Amazon paid subminimum wage, as I don't know the wages. (Although the quote in the story is unclear as to whether the minimum wage being referred to is the shelter exemption rate or Seattle's minimum.) My main intent (as a former Seattle tech founder) was to relay the disappointing background of their partner. I was not attacking the integrity of the program and apologize it came off that way.

SilasX 8y ago

Even if true[1], so what? The exemptions exist specifically to encourage employers to look for ways to make use of the labor of disabled persons, in the hopes that it can lead to discovery of sustainable work that doesn't need an advantage, or at least help such people feel useful (which is important for self-esteem). This "gotcha" is like saying, "$CARMAKER is only investing in electric cars because such autos get tax subsidies." Well, yeah. Public policy encourages things that are underproduced relative to the social optimum. That's why you need public policy to do it, and not regular businesspeople. We have a term for where no one does anything good because the public will ridicule them for not having 100% pure motives: hell. [1] a sibling reply suggests this exemption has been phased out

atdrummond 8y ago
As I explained above, my intent was not at all to ridicule or insult the programme. Instead, I was aware of the NC's track record in the area and had a few concerns. As a disabled person myself, I'm all for expanding workplace opportunities. As for the exemption for subminimum wage, the NC's arguments in the past have been that only federal wage and disability law applies to them, as the workers are contractors. As a result, if the sheltered workshop exemption is properly applied, the workers are only eligible for a few dollars per hour. If that federal disability exemption applies, workers only earn a few dollars per hour. Otherwise, they earn $10.35.
- SilasX 8y ago
  >As I explained above, my intent was not at all to ridicule or insult the programme. Instead, I was aware of the NC's track record in the area and had a few concerns. As a disabled person myself, I'm all for expanding workplace opportunities. Then re-read your comment and considering whether that's the impression you can expect someone to take away from it.
  - atdrummond 8y ago
    I've already apologised and clarified. I'm not sure what continuing to browbeat me about it accomplishes.

bobthepanda 8y ago

From the article, emphasis mine > “I’m grateful to actually have gotten a job,” Howard said during a work break. “It’s just part time, but even still, it’s a good job. … I’m making above minimum wage.” > Likewise, Northwest Center employees and those it places with Amazon are paid at least minimum wage. (Seattle closed a loophole in its minimum wage law that allowed employers to pay people with a disability a sub-minimum wage and recovered back wages from Northwest Center in 2018. Washington and many other states still allow minimum wage waivers.)

atdrummond 8y ago
As mentioned above, I was unclear as to whether the minimum wage in the article refers to Seattle's or the sheltered workshop exemption minimum wage. The NC used this exemption in the past and claimed the workers were contractors - and therefore only beholden to federal wage and disability laws. As long as they (Amazon and the NC) properly established the business as a sheltered workshop, workers would be looking at a few dollars an hour. Otherwise the federal minimum of $10.35 applies.
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  Given that the article refers to the sheltered workshop as "sub-minimum wage", I take the verbiage to mean that they are paid the Seattle minimum wage.

basseq 8y ago

Interesting that we—and I include myself, too—are immediately skeptical of anything other than Amazon finding some "immoral" way to squeeze more juice from the lemon that is the American workforce. It is worth noting that the person with disabilities is quoted as saying he makes "above minimum wage". Likewise, later in the article: > Likewise, Northwest Center employees and those it places with Amazon are paid at least minimum wage. And indeed, I suspect this is the "double-bottom line" motive. Community impact is all well and good, but it has to serve the business as well. In this case, it's good PR, but it's also tapping a new talent pool to hire from. An Amazon rep is quoted saying same: >... “a hybrid of a business need and a philanthropic opportunity.”

908087 8y ago
From the article, it sounds like they only started paying them minimum wage after they were legally forced to in 2018. This wasn't something Northwest Center or Amazon decided to do on their own.
atdrummond 8y ago
I was skeptical not due to Amazon but rather the involvement of the NC. I also am not sure which minimum wage is being referred to - the sheltered workshop wage (a few dollars per hour and federal law, not the state subminimum law), the Seattle minimum wage or the federal minimum ($10.35 and only applies with the sheltered workshop exemption.) Since the NC was caught violating state and city laws, they've claimed they don't have to comply with said regulations as their workers are contractors and only federal disability and wage law applies to them. In that case, the minimum is $10.35 - unless the sheltered workshop exemption is invoked, in which case the wage is a few dollars per hour. Those few dollars are still above the statutory subminimum wage, so the quote could refer to the sheltered workshop wage and still be true.

i_am_proteus 8y ago

Even if they're paid below minimum wage, what's wrong with that? For some mental disabilities, expecting economic output above minimum wage is unrealistic. But these are still human beings who have social wants and c. 16 waking hours every day. If they're unemployable at minimum wage, all they have to do is occupy themselves with extremely cheap leisure-- because they can't afford anything else. I have a mentally disabled family member who used to have a below-minimum-wage sorting job at a direct mail place. The wage laws changed and that dried up. My family is able to support him, but he spends a lot of time walking around and mumbling to himself. He seemed happier when he had somewhere to go and something to do. Of course, it's not easy to understand his perspective. Please consider that, in some circumstances, a company hiring severely disabled people below minimum wage is making a positive contribution to society.

atdrummond 8y ago
I'm disabled myself. I don't disagree with the contention in your last paragraph. That said, as a former founder from Seattle, I'm quite aware of the NC's shenanigans. If there's scope to pay the proper minimum wage to these employees ($10.35 based on the NC's arguments that only federal disability and wage laws apply to them) then I'd prefer to see that happen. As it stands, if one assumes the NC's stance on contractor wages to be correct, the disabled workers could still be paid a few dollars per hour. This would still be above the subminimum wage, so the article's quote about being above the minimum wage would still be accurate. But these workers would be missing out on $7-8 dollars per hour that federal wage law demands they be paid.
- i_am_proteus 8y ago
  I get your perspective, but disability is a continuum. As a founder, you're not really the disabled population I'm thinking of. I'm technically disabled myself, but entirely able to earn a good living. There are some disabled people, though, who can't provide $10.35/hr in economic benefit. If the "full" minimum wage is applied to them, it's much more likely that they end up with nothing to do than they end up making those extra $7-8/hr. Businesses are not charities and will we shouldn't expect them to behave as such. If our society wants to provide for a disadvantaged group, straightforward taxation and redistribution is a much more fair way to accomplish that goal than enacting a wage minimum.