6 ms·

Not to mention the hearing damage I do to my ears in these environments. I can't get into flow unless I literally cannot hear or see activity around me.

otabdeveloper1 8y ago
> I can't get into flow unless I literally cannot hear or see activity around me. Then this job isn't for you. Find a different occupation.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  That does discriminate against a large group who work in tech.
  - parzivalm 8y ago
    I don't think it is really discrimination, if you can't handle an open office setting, then don't work at a place that utilizes one.
    - kevas 8y ago
      Here's a fun fact... not everyone can get a job at a place of their choosing at a drop of the hat.
      - parzivalm 8y ago
        Okay that's true, but what does what you are saying have to do with it being discrimination? Someone not being hired or being treated badly for being a woman is discrimination. Not wanting to working in an open office space is not discrimination.
    - andrei_says_ 8y ago
      If someone can “handle” an open office setting, they are the outlier. Open office high distraction setting may allow shallow work but is seriously prohibitive to deep work.
      - parzivalm 8y ago
        I don't disagree with what you are saying about them being terrible work environments. But it isn't discrimination was my point. That's like saying someone that works at a coffee shop is being discriminated against because they don't like the sound of coffee grinders.
        convolvatron 8y ago
        what part of software engineering practice functionally requires zero privacy or personal space and unending distraction? I always did my job pretty well with a door that closes and my own little whiteboard. people would stop by for a chat, and we could go on for as long or as short as we liked without bothering anyone at all. we didnt spend 15 minutes going back and forth trying to find a booked conference room that happened to be empty to see if we could steal a few minutes discussion time. what was I missing? edit: (sorry, just to be clear, I dont think this is discriminatory, just kind of tragic)
      - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
        I can't speak for others, but I was absolutely furious when my company switched to an "open office" for the engineering department, and it went exactly as well as I predicted. A year and a half later, management promised we would go back to cubicles (and I gave my share of feedback and then some), and it's supposed to happen in the next week or so. Not only did the noise increase immensely, and I went from 0 visual distraction to constant visual distraction, but the open office desks offered about 1/10th of the storage space of the cubicles we had. My desk is so cramped I'm constantly knocking stuff over, and I took home almost everything I don't actually need, save for a digital photo frame. This company treats me pretty well overall, but this open office thing was clearly a money-saving scheme, despite what they might have claimed (because 30 years of evidence shows that it's an _awful_ environment to work in, or as I would tell anyone who would listen, it's the most discredited idea since phrenology.) The good news, of course, is that our ill-advised experiment is almost done, and I'll be back in a cubicle soon. (How times have changed... back in 2001 I had my own office! and now I'm happy to be back in a cubicle...)
    - lmorchard 8y ago
      When so much of tech takes place in an open office setting, "don't work at a place that utilizes one" approaches "don't work in tech". And when so much of white collar work in general happens in that setting, it approaches "don't work"
      - parzivalm 8y ago
        That's true, and I agree, I think open office settings are terrible, but that doesn't change that it isn't discrimination.
    - notacoward 8y ago
      What if things change over time? Your group is moved from one building (or part of a building) with offices or cubes to an open workspace. Your team merges with another, possibly in a different location, that is in an open office and you have to visit. You get older, and well-known physiological changes associated with aging make open-office noise and visual distraction harder to bear. Is it your position that in any of those situations the person should just find another job? Because that falls exactly within the definition of "constructive dismissal" and anyone with a half-way decent lawyer could win that case. In the last case you could add age discrimination for extra damages. Discrimination is still discrimination even if "parzivalm" on Hacker News doesn't feel personally burdened by it.
  - commandlinefan 8y ago
    > large group So large it encompasses pretty much everybody, in fact.
- vibrato 8y ago
  I can be productive without flow. Not maximally productive, but apparently good enough for a top 1% wage. I have demonstrated this well enough to be afforded the freedom to get myself into flow when and by any means necessary. Productive discussion isn't for you. Find a different outlet.
  - cthaeh 8y ago
    Weird flex much?
  - SirSavary 8y ago
    > good enough for a top 1% wage How is this relevant to the rest of the discussion?
    - travisjungroth 8y ago
      "This job isn't for you." "This job _is_ for me, I make a lot of money doing it."
  - otabdeveloper1 8y ago
    > good enough for a top 1% wage Well then, stop complaining. People shovel shit all day for a fraction of that money.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
ken 8y ago
I'm not sure what kind of noise you're being exposed to, but if you're in the USA, OSHA requires your employer to buy you PPE. It's possible that escalating a "buy me PPE" request to the company lawyer could raise a few eyebrows into exactly what conditions you're being asked to work under.
- deytempo 8y ago
  I think they mean they need to use loud music on headphones to work
  - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
    I'm confident I won't go deaf by the time I'm 40, but only because I'm 53. I would usually choose to listen to music anyway, but in an open office, it's a requirement. It doesn't help with the visual distraction, but I have a pair of "Howard Leight" headphones by Honeywell. They are passive noise-cancelling (meaning they just block out noise really well, meant for environments that require hearing protection), have decent sound quality and only cost me about $30. In addition to being completely unable to filter out any distracting noise, I also have misophonia, so an open office is anything between distracting as all get-out and torture, but the headphones and some good loud music mitigate that greatly.
    - zimpenfish 8y ago
      Same with the passive noise-cancelling headphones (Etymotics or Tough Sounds) and misophonia albeit with a side order of rampant tinnitus for added "have to listen to music all day? well, you're going to suffer overnight / tomorrow then!". (I once worked between someone who tapped their feet and someone who drummed on the desk constantly. Those weeks were not productive, even with headphones.)
- anoncake 8y ago
  PPE=Personal protective equipment?

otabdeveloper1 8y ago

> I can't get into flow unless I literally cannot hear or see activity around me. Then this job isn't for you. Find a different occupation.

C1sc0cat 8y ago
That does discriminate against a large group who work in tech.
- parzivalm 8y ago
  I don't think it is really discrimination, if you can't handle an open office setting, then don't work at a place that utilizes one.
  - kevas 8y ago
    Here's a fun fact... not everyone can get a job at a place of their choosing at a drop of the hat.
    - parzivalm 8y ago
      Okay that's true, but what does what you are saying have to do with it being discrimination? Someone not being hired or being treated badly for being a woman is discrimination. Not wanting to working in an open office space is not discrimination.
  - andrei_says_ 8y ago
    If someone can “handle” an open office setting, they are the outlier. Open office high distraction setting may allow shallow work but is seriously prohibitive to deep work.
    - parzivalm 8y ago
      I don't disagree with what you are saying about them being terrible work environments. But it isn't discrimination was my point. That's like saying someone that works at a coffee shop is being discriminated against because they don't like the sound of coffee grinders.
      - convolvatron 8y ago
        what part of software engineering practice functionally requires zero privacy or personal space and unending distraction? I always did my job pretty well with a door that closes and my own little whiteboard. people would stop by for a chat, and we could go on for as long or as short as we liked without bothering anyone at all. we didnt spend 15 minutes going back and forth trying to find a booked conference room that happened to be empty to see if we could steal a few minutes discussion time. what was I missing? edit: (sorry, just to be clear, I dont think this is discriminatory, just kind of tragic)
    - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
      I can't speak for others, but I was absolutely furious when my company switched to an "open office" for the engineering department, and it went exactly as well as I predicted. A year and a half later, management promised we would go back to cubicles (and I gave my share of feedback and then some), and it's supposed to happen in the next week or so. Not only did the noise increase immensely, and I went from 0 visual distraction to constant visual distraction, but the open office desks offered about 1/10th of the storage space of the cubicles we had. My desk is so cramped I'm constantly knocking stuff over, and I took home almost everything I don't actually need, save for a digital photo frame. This company treats me pretty well overall, but this open office thing was clearly a money-saving scheme, despite what they might have claimed (because 30 years of evidence shows that it's an _awful_ environment to work in, or as I would tell anyone who would listen, it's the most discredited idea since phrenology.) The good news, of course, is that our ill-advised experiment is almost done, and I'll be back in a cubicle soon. (How times have changed... back in 2001 I had my own office! and now I'm happy to be back in a cubicle...)
  - lmorchard 8y ago
    When so much of tech takes place in an open office setting, "don't work at a place that utilizes one" approaches "don't work in tech". And when so much of white collar work in general happens in that setting, it approaches "don't work"
    - parzivalm 8y ago
      That's true, and I agree, I think open office settings are terrible, but that doesn't change that it isn't discrimination.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    What if things change over time? Your group is moved from one building (or part of a building) with offices or cubes to an open workspace. Your team merges with another, possibly in a different location, that is in an open office and you have to visit. You get older, and well-known physiological changes associated with aging make open-office noise and visual distraction harder to bear. Is it your position that in any of those situations the person should just find another job? Because that falls exactly within the definition of "constructive dismissal" and anyone with a half-way decent lawyer could win that case. In the last case you could add age discrimination for extra damages. Discrimination is still discrimination even if "parzivalm" on Hacker News doesn't feel personally burdened by it.
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  > large group So large it encompasses pretty much everybody, in fact.
vibrato 8y ago
I can be productive without flow. Not maximally productive, but apparently good enough for a top 1% wage. I have demonstrated this well enough to be afforded the freedom to get myself into flow when and by any means necessary. Productive discussion isn't for you. Find a different outlet.
- cthaeh 8y ago
  Weird flex much?
- SirSavary 8y ago
  > good enough for a top 1% wage How is this relevant to the rest of the discussion?
  - travisjungroth 8y ago
    "This job isn't for you." "This job _is_ for me, I make a lot of money doing it."
- otabdeveloper1 8y ago
  > good enough for a top 1% wage Well then, stop complaining. People shovel shit all day for a fraction of that money.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

ken 8y ago

I'm not sure what kind of noise you're being exposed to, but if you're in the USA, OSHA requires your employer to buy you PPE. It's possible that escalating a "buy me PPE" request to the company lawyer could raise a few eyebrows into exactly what conditions you're being asked to work under.

deytempo 8y ago
I think they mean they need to use loud music on headphones to work
- ConceptJunkie 8y ago
  I'm confident I won't go deaf by the time I'm 40, but only because I'm 53. I would usually choose to listen to music anyway, but in an open office, it's a requirement. It doesn't help with the visual distraction, but I have a pair of "Howard Leight" headphones by Honeywell. They are passive noise-cancelling (meaning they just block out noise really well, meant for environments that require hearing protection), have decent sound quality and only cost me about $30. In addition to being completely unable to filter out any distracting noise, I also have misophonia, so an open office is anything between distracting as all get-out and torture, but the headphones and some good loud music mitigate that greatly.
  - zimpenfish 8y ago
    Same with the passive noise-cancelling headphones (Etymotics or Tough Sounds) and misophonia albeit with a side order of rampant tinnitus for added "have to listen to music all day? well, you're going to suffer overnight / tomorrow then!". (I once worked between someone who tapped their feet and someone who drummed on the desk constantly. Those weeks were not productive, even with headphones.)
anoncake 8y ago
PPE=Personal protective equipment?