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The implication that open offices are fine as long as you are using noise-cancelling headphones irks the hell out of me. If a working environment is noisy/distr

The implication that open offices are fine as long as you are using noise-cancelling headphones irks the hell out of me. If a working environment is noisy/distracting to the point that you can't be productive without having to rely on headphones, then there is a fundamental problem with your environment. People should not HAVE to do buy/use something just to be productive. It's downright disrespectful to expect your workers to just "deal with the noise in a professional manner".

vibrato 8y ago
Not to mention the hearing damage I do to my ears in these environments. I can't get into flow unless I literally cannot hear or see activity around me.
- otabdeveloper1 8y ago
  > I can't get into flow unless I literally cannot hear or see activity around me. Then this job isn't for you. Find a different occupation.
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago
    That does discriminate against a large group who work in tech.
    - parzivalm 8y ago
      I don't think it is really discrimination, if you can't handle an open office setting, then don't work at a place that utilizes one.
      - kevas 8y ago
        Here's a fun fact... not everyone can get a job at a place of their choosing at a drop of the hat.
        parzivalm 8y ago
        Okay that's true, but what does what you are saying have to do with it being discrimination? Someone not being hired or being treated badly for being a woman is discrimination. Not wanting to working in an open office space is not discrimination.
      - andrei_says_ 8y ago
        If someone can “handle” an open office setting, they are the outlier. Open office high distraction setting may allow shallow work but is seriously prohibitive to deep work.
        parzivalm 8y ago
        I don't disagree with what you are saying about them being terrible work environments. But it isn't discrimination was my point. That's like saying someone that works at a coffee shop is being discriminated against because they don't like the sound of coffee grinders.
        convolvatron 8y ago
        what part of software engineering practice functionally requires zero privacy or personal space and unending distraction? I always did my job pretty well with a door that closes and my own little whiteboard. people would stop by for a chat, and we could go on for as long or as short as we liked without bothering anyone at all. we didnt spend 15 minutes going back and forth trying to find a booked conference room that happened to be empty to see if we could steal a few minutes discussion time. what was I missing? edit: (sorry, just to be clear, I dont think this is discriminatory, just kind of tragic)
        ConceptJunkie 8y ago
        I can't speak for others, but I was absolutely furious when my company switched to an "open office" for the engineering department, and it went exactly as well as I predicted. A year and a half later, management promised we would go back to cubicles (and I gave my share of feedback and then some), and it's supposed to happen in the next week or so. Not only did the noise increase immensely, and I went from 0 visual distraction to constant visual distraction, but the open office desks offered about 1/10th of the storage space of the cubicles we had. My desk is so cramped I'm constantly knocking stuff over, and I took home almost everything I don't actually need, save for a digital photo frame. This company treats me pretty well overall, but this open office thing was clearly a money-saving scheme, despite what they might have claimed (because 30 years of evidence shows that it's an _awful_ environment to work in, or as I would tell anyone who would listen, it's the most discredited idea since phrenology.) The good news, of course, is that our ill-advised experiment is almost done, and I'll be back in a cubicle soon. (How times have changed... back in 2001 I had my own office! and now I'm happy to be back in a cubicle...)
      - lmorchard 8y ago
        When so much of tech takes place in an open office setting, "don't work at a place that utilizes one" approaches "don't work in tech". And when so much of white collar work in general happens in that setting, it approaches "don't work"
        parzivalm 8y ago
        That's true, and I agree, I think open office settings are terrible, but that doesn't change that it isn't discrimination.
      - notacoward 8y ago
        What if things change over time? Your group is moved from one building (or part of a building) with offices or cubes to an open workspace. Your team merges with another, possibly in a different location, that is in an open office and you have to visit. You get older, and well-known physiological changes associated with aging make open-office noise and visual distraction harder to bear. Is it your position that in any of those situations the person should just find another job? Because that falls exactly within the definition of "constructive dismissal" and anyone with a half-way decent lawyer could win that case. In the last case you could add age discrimination for extra damages. Discrimination is still discrimination even if "parzivalm" on Hacker News doesn't feel personally burdened by it.
    - commandlinefan 8y ago
      > large group So large it encompasses pretty much everybody, in fact.
  - vibrato 8y ago
    I can be productive without flow. Not maximally productive, but apparently good enough for a top 1% wage. I have demonstrated this well enough to be afforded the freedom to get myself into flow when and by any means necessary. Productive discussion isn't for you. Find a different outlet.
    - cthaeh 8y ago
      Weird flex much?
    - SirSavary 8y ago
      > good enough for a top 1% wage How is this relevant to the rest of the discussion?
      - travisjungroth 8y ago
        "This job isn't for you." "This job _is_ for me, I make a lot of money doing it."
    - otabdeveloper1 8y ago
      > good enough for a top 1% wage Well then, stop complaining. People shovel shit all day for a fraction of that money.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- ken 8y ago
  I'm not sure what kind of noise you're being exposed to, but if you're in the USA, OSHA requires your employer to buy you PPE. It's possible that escalating a "buy me PPE" request to the company lawyer could raise a few eyebrows into exactly what conditions you're being asked to work under.
  - deytempo 8y ago
    I think they mean they need to use loud music on headphones to work
    - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
      I'm confident I won't go deaf by the time I'm 40, but only because I'm 53. I would usually choose to listen to music anyway, but in an open office, it's a requirement. It doesn't help with the visual distraction, but I have a pair of "Howard Leight" headphones by Honeywell. They are passive noise-cancelling (meaning they just block out noise really well, meant for environments that require hearing protection), have decent sound quality and only cost me about $30. In addition to being completely unable to filter out any distracting noise, I also have misophonia, so an open office is anything between distracting as all get-out and torture, but the headphones and some good loud music mitigate that greatly.
      - zimpenfish 8y ago
        Same with the passive noise-cancelling headphones (Etymotics or Tough Sounds) and misophonia albeit with a side order of rampant tinnitus for added "have to listen to music all day? well, you're going to suffer overnight / tomorrow then!". (I once worked between someone who tapped their feet and someone who drummed on the desk constantly. Those weeks were not productive, even with headphones.)
  - anoncake 8y ago
    PPE=Personal protective equipment?
ProAm 8y ago
> People should not HAVE to do buy/use something just to be productive Buying high wall cubicles or paying for a construction company to build out offices is still buying something to be productive.
- Retra 8y ago
  By 'people', it is pretty clear they meant employees, not the company.
  - ProAm 8y ago
    I would assume most people are expensing noise cancelling headphones or writing them off. It's not an item the employee would be expected to cover, so its still cheaper for the company to do this than build outs.
    - lmorchard 8y ago
      I'd be surprised if those assumptions are largely true.
maxxxxx 8y ago
My workplace feels like it’s designed to keep people from working so you have to fight for getting anything done. It’s crazy.
rhcom2 8y ago
And how jarring it is to have someone walk up behind you and tap on your desk, or your shoulder, to get your attention while wearing headphones.
- chrisBob 8y ago
  After a coworker screamed twice from this I made them a pretty RGB-LED display that flashes a rainbow when you press the button at the entrance to their cube. I am surprised I haven't seen any good products in this space. I feel like you could make good money selling programmers something that is essentially a button, battery LED and 6' of wire.
  - ska 8y ago
    I’ve seen a product (forget the name) that does the opposite signalling. USB powered RGB light dongle on your desk/cube. Red means “don’t interrupt me unless the building is on fire”, orange was “don’t interrupt me” , green was “feel free to bug me with that question” I’m sure they could be repurposed the way you suggest. But don’t most people in open spaces use slack or equivalent for that?
  - kurtisc 8y ago
    My mum has something that does this. She calls it a 'doorbell'. Doesn't even need the wire.
    - wccrawford 8y ago
      I just bought a new wireless doorbell. You can configure the sound and lights separately, so it would definitely work in this instance.
      - effingwewt 8y ago
        I had just replied to the comment above yours that doorbells do indeed have wires. Forgot completely about the new wireless ones. That makes much more sense.
BonesJustice 8y ago
There's really only one kind of environment where open offices make sense, and that's if you're in a high-stakes production environment. The classic example is the trading floor: everyone on the team works in the same room because they all need to be within shouting distance in case the poo hits the fan. Also, because it's important that we be able to hear when someone shouts across the room, we're usually pretty good about keeping our voices down except in emergencies. It's certainly not our favorite part of the job, but trading floors are historically high-stress environments, and (1) we're compensated accordingly, and (2) we all knew that when we signed up. In a typical corporate office, I would not tolerate it. I would push back, and I encourage anyone with sufficient job security to push back too.
- dvtrn 8y ago
  In a typical corporate office, I would not tolerate it. I would push back, and I encourage anyone with sufficient job security to push back too. Very early in my career, when I as still operating in the break/fix world of help desk support I toured an office during an interview. It was a boilerroom sales team, complete with a gong that someone bashed as I walked along the back wall to the conference rooms, everyone cheered madly, papers flew, loud music started playing off of a set of overhead speakers. I winced the moment the music blared and almost visually grimaced from the volume. Along the way the hiring manager interviewing me pointed to an area in the back of the office with laptops stacked up to the desk from the floor, monitors, cables everywhere-directly underneath one of the speakers. He didn't have to tell me, I figured it out, but he told me anyway "And over there is where IT sits". I stopped the recruiter before we made it to the conference room and politely pardoned myself from the interview process. No way in hell. IMO, that push back needs to start early, as early as possible where possible. Not everyone may have the circumstances to punt on an interview like that, completely understandable, but the interview is just as much for your benefit as theirs. Candidates should evaluate as much as they can by sheer power of observation as they can verbally asking about working from home. That means taking in what you can that you might not be explicitly shown-or worse, steered away from if you're brought in for an on-site interview.
- baud147258 8y ago
  I had an intership where the devs were next to the trading floor. The noise level were very annoying and most work was done after the market had closed for the day
commandlinefan 8y ago
> noise-cancelling headphones After 8 hours, my ears actually hurt from wearing air-traffic-controller style headphones all day.
- jriot 8y ago
  Air traffic controllers wear a small in the ear style headphone, and only in one ear. It was far easier to wear ATC headset than headphones all day. Plus I usually took a 30 min break every two hours so I didn't need to wear it all day.
  - cxseven 8y ago
    I think he meant the airport employees on the tarmac who wear giant ear muffs.
    - commandlinefan 8y ago
      You're giving me too much credit, I meant the guys in the air traffic control tower - I just thought they wore the same giant ear muffs that the guys down on the tarmac wear.
      - NikkiA 8y ago
        I've got even more bad news... the guys in the tower generally aren't ATC, but ground traffic control. The ATC guys will be in a dark room somewhere, probably a basement.
        commandlinefan 8y ago
        I can't believe Hollywood has been misleading me all these years...
        jriot 8y ago
        That would be wrong. The guys in the tower are ATC, they do ground control (still ATC) and local control, surface to 2500' with a 5-mile radius. The dark room guys (TRACON) do surface to the top of their airspace (depends, 18k, 23k) with a 60-mile radius (roughly). Then there is center/en route, which does air traffic above the TRACON when you are level flying at 30k+. Simplified version. Source: Was an air traffic controller.
technofiend 8y ago
Constant noise in and of itself is stressful. Whether it's coworkers on the phone, music you're drowning them out with or white noise to mask them and give your noise cancelling headphones input doesn't matter. I shouldn't be subjected to non-stop aural input 8 hours a day to type on a keyboard.
blue4 8y ago
I think it's hilarious there are complaints about regular office noise like talking business on phones, typing, and sniffling/cough etc... If you want to go to sleep it's a perfect to expect that...otherwise stop complaining get headphones, move your desk, change your environment or remove yourself from the equation in some way. I don't believe that productivity is hurt because of open office sounds, I think people just love complaining.
- ALittleLight 8y ago
  That's a bit silly. How can you not be distracted when there are conversations happening around you, or when coworkers can intrude on your thoughts with idle curiosities? I've worked both with my own office and in an open office. The difference is night and day. I'm vastly more productive and much happier in a closed door office. Most people report the same.
  - blue4 8y ago
    If you're working in an office you should expect some level of office noises. I'm not talking about a truck honking his horn outside your window for 8 hours is normal, I'm saying general noises - ones that have a short time on them, and are required for their jobs. I would have expected my comment to be clearer than it may have sounded. To clarify, just because you're in a library doesn't mean it is absolutely pin drop quiet. There is basic atmosphere noise. I of course am in favor of a closed office, and cubicle farms and open environments are easily more favorable for the employer than employee, but it seems expected to have some basic noise in an open office that people love complaining about—instead of championing closed offices which is never going to happen in a lot of companies.
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  > I don't believe that productivity is hurt because of open office sounds Your lack of belief does not invalidate other people's experiences. You may feel that your productivity isn't hurt in open offices, and you might even be right about yourself. But "this doesn't bother me so it doesn't bother anyone" (or even "so it shouldn't bother anyone") causes serious problems.
cm2187 8y ago
Agree, but when you buy headphone, make sure you buy a non-leaky model. Most headphones are awfully leaky at high volumes.
- wccrawford 8y ago
  Leaky? Like, other people can hear them? I'd have a hard time caring about that if I had to wear headphones and play them loud enough to drown out the noise around me in the first place. (Luckily, I have a door and a pair of headphones with a noise cancelling function that is usually good enough without even any music playing.)
  - cm2187 8y ago
    That's what I mean. If you are in a work environment, you may want to isolate yourself from a discussion happening behind you, but that's not a heavy metal concert environment either, if you use the headphones sold along the iphone, everyone around you will hear your music. But even in a very noisy environment, think the tube in London, where the noise level when going through a tunnel can be similar to a factory floor, surprisingly, people will hear your noisy iphone and will be annoyed by it. Now if it is in London they will be too polite to let you know. But I think not making annoying noise is also a form of politeness I like to adhere to in any case.
  - loco5niner 8y ago
    That doesn't make sense. Why would you want to ADD to the problem instead of being part of the solution?
robbrit 8y ago
Not to mention that for some people, noise-cancelling headphones are nausea-inducing. I had this after a single day of using Bose's headphones, despite not getting nauseous from other common things (reading in a car, roller coasters, etc.).
tsumnia 8y ago
How this was framed irked me, so to play devil's advocate, I looked at your comment outside of corporate life - the analogies I'm using in my head are factories and kitchens. You need Steel-Toed boots and Earplugs for some locations - I'm not sure how much of that is compensated. For waste processing, you either "deal with it" or have a purchase some form of smell-cancelling equivalent (peppermint oil on a cotton swab is an example I've heard used in a hospital). What about slip-resistant shoes for cooking in a kitchen? By all means, I don't enjoy the open office layout - I literally spent 20 minutes this morning talking to my immediate neighbor about NOTHING. HOWEVER, I suppose what I'd like to ask is - "what makes a white-collar job's comfort more important than other occupations, to the point they should be either compensated for purchasing items to maintain it or isolated with [cubicle] walls put up?" [Slippery slope fallacy incoming] Maybe that music or podcast is distracting you from work, I mean we wouldn't want you to see a 20, but think 10 because your podcast was simultaneously playing their 10% Squarespace ad. You are right, noise is distracting and corporate is now providing all employees with noise-cancelling earplugs. EDIT: Since I've been downvoted, can I have an explanation, or is this a simple I'm saying something the HN community disagrees with?
- Rooster61 8y ago
  I did not downvote you (and in fact can't since its a direct reply), but I'll bite. Steel-Toed boots and earplugs are necessary because of safety requirements. You can crush your toes and lose your hearing as a result of that job. Waste processing smells because of the fact that, well, waste smells. There is utterly nothing the company or the individual can do other than mask the smell for them self. Programming has no such utterly-unavoidable noise aspect (unless you count meetings and around-the-desk discussions, things which I personally can deal with to a reasonable extent). There is absolutely, positively no reason that a company of a decent size can't format their office in a way that is less distracting than an open-office format. Drawing a line between white and blue collar jobs in this manner is a false equivalence and a strawman.
  - wccrawford 8y ago
    I'd argue that companies can provide everyone offices for the same reason that companies can't provide everyone robots that do the dangerous labor: It's expensive.
chaostheory 8y ago
For me it's not the noise; headphones take care of that. The problem is the visual distractions. People walking to and fro. If you know one of those people, then the chances of a distraction goes up even more. I guess a future way to mitigate it would be a high res VR HMD
- satokema_work 8y ago
  This. Our desks unfortunately have to be so close as to face each other, and anytime the guy across from me is in the office I have to deal with distractions every time he wants to stretch, stand up, sit down, have a conversation with someone, etc. etc. Now we actually have a flexible remote policy, but that's an entirely different can of worms, as I liked having a place to do deep work in that wasn't a coffee shop. My home is a bit too distracting sometimes.
  - EForEndeavour 8y ago
    Your comment is a nice example of how low-frequency distractions (A specific coworker shifting position in your field of view) can be much worse than being immersed in a high volume of distractions (strangers milling about in a coffee shop that's probably playing music, running grinders, yelling names, etc.)
vbuwivbiu 8y ago
couldn't agree more
makecheck 8y ago
Yes, and headphones are definitely not comfortable to wear constantly anyway. And sounds get through. Private office, closing door. This should be the minimum price to hire someone.
loudtieblahblah 8y ago
It's about more than noise. Cube walls, over the years kept getting shorter and shorter until finally doing away with them entirely. The point is - the business requires that you have zero privacy or any kind of time to yourself in any capacity outside of assigned breaks. The whole purpose is to create a panopticon of a work place, where even when you aren't being watched you modify your behavior on the possibility that you're being watched Open offices are inherently authoritarian in a corporate/cyberpunk sort of way. That's their primary function. All this crap about collaboration and fostering open communication is just the face of it.

vibrato 8y ago

Not to mention the hearing damage I do to my ears in these environments. I can't get into flow unless I literally cannot hear or see activity around me.

otabdeveloper1 8y ago
> I can't get into flow unless I literally cannot hear or see activity around me. Then this job isn't for you. Find a different occupation.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  That does discriminate against a large group who work in tech.
  - parzivalm 8y ago
    I don't think it is really discrimination, if you can't handle an open office setting, then don't work at a place that utilizes one.
    - kevas 8y ago
      Here's a fun fact... not everyone can get a job at a place of their choosing at a drop of the hat.
      - parzivalm 8y ago
        Okay that's true, but what does what you are saying have to do with it being discrimination? Someone not being hired or being treated badly for being a woman is discrimination. Not wanting to working in an open office space is not discrimination.
    - andrei_says_ 8y ago
      If someone can “handle” an open office setting, they are the outlier. Open office high distraction setting may allow shallow work but is seriously prohibitive to deep work.
      - parzivalm 8y ago
        I don't disagree with what you are saying about them being terrible work environments. But it isn't discrimination was my point. That's like saying someone that works at a coffee shop is being discriminated against because they don't like the sound of coffee grinders.
        convolvatron 8y ago
        what part of software engineering practice functionally requires zero privacy or personal space and unending distraction? I always did my job pretty well with a door that closes and my own little whiteboard. people would stop by for a chat, and we could go on for as long or as short as we liked without bothering anyone at all. we didnt spend 15 minutes going back and forth trying to find a booked conference room that happened to be empty to see if we could steal a few minutes discussion time. what was I missing? edit: (sorry, just to be clear, I dont think this is discriminatory, just kind of tragic)
      - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
        I can't speak for others, but I was absolutely furious when my company switched to an "open office" for the engineering department, and it went exactly as well as I predicted. A year and a half later, management promised we would go back to cubicles (and I gave my share of feedback and then some), and it's supposed to happen in the next week or so. Not only did the noise increase immensely, and I went from 0 visual distraction to constant visual distraction, but the open office desks offered about 1/10th of the storage space of the cubicles we had. My desk is so cramped I'm constantly knocking stuff over, and I took home almost everything I don't actually need, save for a digital photo frame. This company treats me pretty well overall, but this open office thing was clearly a money-saving scheme, despite what they might have claimed (because 30 years of evidence shows that it's an _awful_ environment to work in, or as I would tell anyone who would listen, it's the most discredited idea since phrenology.) The good news, of course, is that our ill-advised experiment is almost done, and I'll be back in a cubicle soon. (How times have changed... back in 2001 I had my own office! and now I'm happy to be back in a cubicle...)
    - lmorchard 8y ago
      When so much of tech takes place in an open office setting, "don't work at a place that utilizes one" approaches "don't work in tech". And when so much of white collar work in general happens in that setting, it approaches "don't work"
      - parzivalm 8y ago
        That's true, and I agree, I think open office settings are terrible, but that doesn't change that it isn't discrimination.
    - notacoward 8y ago
      What if things change over time? Your group is moved from one building (or part of a building) with offices or cubes to an open workspace. Your team merges with another, possibly in a different location, that is in an open office and you have to visit. You get older, and well-known physiological changes associated with aging make open-office noise and visual distraction harder to bear. Is it your position that in any of those situations the person should just find another job? Because that falls exactly within the definition of "constructive dismissal" and anyone with a half-way decent lawyer could win that case. In the last case you could add age discrimination for extra damages. Discrimination is still discrimination even if "parzivalm" on Hacker News doesn't feel personally burdened by it.
  - commandlinefan 8y ago
    > large group So large it encompasses pretty much everybody, in fact.
- vibrato 8y ago
  I can be productive without flow. Not maximally productive, but apparently good enough for a top 1% wage. I have demonstrated this well enough to be afforded the freedom to get myself into flow when and by any means necessary. Productive discussion isn't for you. Find a different outlet.
  - cthaeh 8y ago
    Weird flex much?
  - SirSavary 8y ago
    > good enough for a top 1% wage How is this relevant to the rest of the discussion?
    - travisjungroth 8y ago
      "This job isn't for you." "This job _is_ for me, I make a lot of money doing it."
  - otabdeveloper1 8y ago
    > good enough for a top 1% wage Well then, stop complaining. People shovel shit all day for a fraction of that money.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
ken 8y ago
I'm not sure what kind of noise you're being exposed to, but if you're in the USA, OSHA requires your employer to buy you PPE. It's possible that escalating a "buy me PPE" request to the company lawyer could raise a few eyebrows into exactly what conditions you're being asked to work under.
- deytempo 8y ago
  I think they mean they need to use loud music on headphones to work
  - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
    I'm confident I won't go deaf by the time I'm 40, but only because I'm 53. I would usually choose to listen to music anyway, but in an open office, it's a requirement. It doesn't help with the visual distraction, but I have a pair of "Howard Leight" headphones by Honeywell. They are passive noise-cancelling (meaning they just block out noise really well, meant for environments that require hearing protection), have decent sound quality and only cost me about $30. In addition to being completely unable to filter out any distracting noise, I also have misophonia, so an open office is anything between distracting as all get-out and torture, but the headphones and some good loud music mitigate that greatly.
    - zimpenfish 8y ago
      Same with the passive noise-cancelling headphones (Etymotics or Tough Sounds) and misophonia albeit with a side order of rampant tinnitus for added "have to listen to music all day? well, you're going to suffer overnight / tomorrow then!". (I once worked between someone who tapped their feet and someone who drummed on the desk constantly. Those weeks were not productive, even with headphones.)
- anoncake 8y ago
  PPE=Personal protective equipment?

ProAm 8y ago

> People should not HAVE to do buy/use something just to be productive Buying high wall cubicles or paying for a construction company to build out offices is still buying something to be productive.

Retra 8y ago
By 'people', it is pretty clear they meant employees, not the company.
- ProAm 8y ago
  I would assume most people are expensing noise cancelling headphones or writing them off. It's not an item the employee would be expected to cover, so its still cheaper for the company to do this than build outs.
  - lmorchard 8y ago
    I'd be surprised if those assumptions are largely true.

maxxxxx 8y ago

My workplace feels like it’s designed to keep people from working so you have to fight for getting anything done. It’s crazy.

rhcom2 8y ago

And how jarring it is to have someone walk up behind you and tap on your desk, or your shoulder, to get your attention while wearing headphones.

chrisBob 8y ago
After a coworker screamed twice from this I made them a pretty RGB-LED display that flashes a rainbow when you press the button at the entrance to their cube. I am surprised I haven't seen any good products in this space. I feel like you could make good money selling programmers something that is essentially a button, battery LED and 6' of wire.
- ska 8y ago
  I’ve seen a product (forget the name) that does the opposite signalling. USB powered RGB light dongle on your desk/cube. Red means “don’t interrupt me unless the building is on fire”, orange was “don’t interrupt me” , green was “feel free to bug me with that question” I’m sure they could be repurposed the way you suggest. But don’t most people in open spaces use slack or equivalent for that?
- kurtisc 8y ago
  My mum has something that does this. She calls it a 'doorbell'. Doesn't even need the wire.
  - wccrawford 8y ago
    I just bought a new wireless doorbell. You can configure the sound and lights separately, so it would definitely work in this instance.
    - effingwewt 8y ago
      I had just replied to the comment above yours that doorbells do indeed have wires. Forgot completely about the new wireless ones. That makes much more sense.

BonesJustice 8y ago

There's really only one kind of environment where open offices make sense, and that's if you're in a high-stakes production environment. The classic example is the trading floor: everyone on the team works in the same room because they all need to be within shouting distance in case the poo hits the fan. Also, because it's important that we be able to hear when someone shouts across the room, we're usually pretty good about keeping our voices down except in emergencies. It's certainly not our favorite part of the job, but trading floors are historically high-stress environments, and (1) we're compensated accordingly, and (2) we all knew that when we signed up. In a typical corporate office, I would not tolerate it. I would push back, and I encourage anyone with sufficient job security to push back too.

dvtrn 8y ago
In a typical corporate office, I would not tolerate it. I would push back, and I encourage anyone with sufficient job security to push back too. Very early in my career, when I as still operating in the break/fix world of help desk support I toured an office during an interview. It was a boilerroom sales team, complete with a gong that someone bashed as I walked along the back wall to the conference rooms, everyone cheered madly, papers flew, loud music started playing off of a set of overhead speakers. I winced the moment the music blared and almost visually grimaced from the volume. Along the way the hiring manager interviewing me pointed to an area in the back of the office with laptops stacked up to the desk from the floor, monitors, cables everywhere-directly underneath one of the speakers. He didn't have to tell me, I figured it out, but he told me anyway "And over there is where IT sits". I stopped the recruiter before we made it to the conference room and politely pardoned myself from the interview process. No way in hell. IMO, that push back needs to start early, as early as possible where possible. Not everyone may have the circumstances to punt on an interview like that, completely understandable, but the interview is just as much for your benefit as theirs. Candidates should evaluate as much as they can by sheer power of observation as they can verbally asking about working from home. That means taking in what you can that you might not be explicitly shown-or worse, steered away from if you're brought in for an on-site interview.
baud147258 8y ago
I had an intership where the devs were next to the trading floor. The noise level were very annoying and most work was done after the market had closed for the day

commandlinefan 8y ago

> noise-cancelling headphones After 8 hours, my ears actually hurt from wearing air-traffic-controller style headphones all day.

jriot 8y ago
Air traffic controllers wear a small in the ear style headphone, and only in one ear. It was far easier to wear ATC headset than headphones all day. Plus I usually took a 30 min break every two hours so I didn't need to wear it all day.
- cxseven 8y ago
  I think he meant the airport employees on the tarmac who wear giant ear muffs.
  - commandlinefan 8y ago
    You're giving me too much credit, I meant the guys in the air traffic control tower - I just thought they wore the same giant ear muffs that the guys down on the tarmac wear.
    - NikkiA 8y ago
      I've got even more bad news... the guys in the tower generally aren't ATC, but ground traffic control. The ATC guys will be in a dark room somewhere, probably a basement.
      - commandlinefan 8y ago
        I can't believe Hollywood has been misleading me all these years...
      - jriot 8y ago
        That would be wrong. The guys in the tower are ATC, they do ground control (still ATC) and local control, surface to 2500' with a 5-mile radius. The dark room guys (TRACON) do surface to the top of their airspace (depends, 18k, 23k) with a 60-mile radius (roughly). Then there is center/en route, which does air traffic above the TRACON when you are level flying at 30k+. Simplified version. Source: Was an air traffic controller.

technofiend 8y ago

Constant noise in and of itself is stressful. Whether it's coworkers on the phone, music you're drowning them out with or white noise to mask them and give your noise cancelling headphones input doesn't matter. I shouldn't be subjected to non-stop aural input 8 hours a day to type on a keyboard.

blue4 8y ago

I think it's hilarious there are complaints about regular office noise like talking business on phones, typing, and sniffling/cough etc... If you want to go to sleep it's a perfect to expect that...otherwise stop complaining get headphones, move your desk, change your environment or remove yourself from the equation in some way. I don't believe that productivity is hurt because of open office sounds, I think people just love complaining.

ALittleLight 8y ago
That's a bit silly. How can you not be distracted when there are conversations happening around you, or when coworkers can intrude on your thoughts with idle curiosities? I've worked both with my own office and in an open office. The difference is night and day. I'm vastly more productive and much happier in a closed door office. Most people report the same.
- blue4 8y ago
  If you're working in an office you should expect some level of office noises. I'm not talking about a truck honking his horn outside your window for 8 hours is normal, I'm saying general noises - ones that have a short time on them, and are required for their jobs. I would have expected my comment to be clearer than it may have sounded. To clarify, just because you're in a library doesn't mean it is absolutely pin drop quiet. There is basic atmosphere noise. I of course am in favor of a closed office, and cubicle farms and open environments are easily more favorable for the employer than employee, but it seems expected to have some basic noise in an open office that people love complaining about—instead of championing closed offices which is never going to happen in a lot of companies.
JoshTriplett 8y ago
> I don't believe that productivity is hurt because of open office sounds Your lack of belief does not invalidate other people's experiences. You may feel that your productivity isn't hurt in open offices, and you might even be right about yourself. But "this doesn't bother me so it doesn't bother anyone" (or even "so it shouldn't bother anyone") causes serious problems.

cm2187 8y ago

Agree, but when you buy headphone, make sure you buy a non-leaky model. Most headphones are awfully leaky at high volumes.

wccrawford 8y ago
Leaky? Like, other people can hear them? I'd have a hard time caring about that if I had to wear headphones and play them loud enough to drown out the noise around me in the first place. (Luckily, I have a door and a pair of headphones with a noise cancelling function that is usually good enough without even any music playing.)
- cm2187 8y ago
  That's what I mean. If you are in a work environment, you may want to isolate yourself from a discussion happening behind you, but that's not a heavy metal concert environment either, if you use the headphones sold along the iphone, everyone around you will hear your music. But even in a very noisy environment, think the tube in London, where the noise level when going through a tunnel can be similar to a factory floor, surprisingly, people will hear your noisy iphone and will be annoyed by it. Now if it is in London they will be too polite to let you know. But I think not making annoying noise is also a form of politeness I like to adhere to in any case.
- loco5niner 8y ago
  That doesn't make sense. Why would you want to ADD to the problem instead of being part of the solution?

robbrit 8y ago

Not to mention that for some people, noise-cancelling headphones are nausea-inducing. I had this after a single day of using Bose's headphones, despite not getting nauseous from other common things (reading in a car, roller coasters, etc.).

tsumnia 8y ago

How this was framed irked me, so to play devil's advocate, I looked at your comment outside of corporate life - the analogies I'm using in my head are factories and kitchens. You need Steel-Toed boots and Earplugs for some locations - I'm not sure how much of that is compensated. For waste processing, you either "deal with it" or have a purchase some form of smell-cancelling equivalent (peppermint oil on a cotton swab is an example I've heard used in a hospital). What about slip-resistant shoes for cooking in a kitchen? By all means, I don't enjoy the open office layout - I literally spent 20 minutes this morning talking to my immediate neighbor about NOTHING. HOWEVER, I suppose what I'd like to ask is - "what makes a white-collar job's comfort more important than other occupations, to the point they should be either compensated for purchasing items to maintain it or isolated with [cubicle] walls put up?" [Slippery slope fallacy incoming] Maybe that music or podcast is distracting you from work, I mean we wouldn't want you to see a 20, but think 10 because your podcast was simultaneously playing their 10% Squarespace ad. You are right, noise is distracting and corporate is now providing all employees with noise-cancelling earplugs. EDIT: Since I've been downvoted, can I have an explanation, or is this a simple I'm saying something the HN community disagrees with?

Rooster61 8y ago
I did not downvote you (and in fact can't since its a direct reply), but I'll bite. Steel-Toed boots and earplugs are necessary because of safety requirements. You can crush your toes and lose your hearing as a result of that job. Waste processing smells because of the fact that, well, waste smells. There is utterly nothing the company or the individual can do other than mask the smell for them self. Programming has no such utterly-unavoidable noise aspect (unless you count meetings and around-the-desk discussions, things which I personally can deal with to a reasonable extent). There is absolutely, positively no reason that a company of a decent size can't format their office in a way that is less distracting than an open-office format. Drawing a line between white and blue collar jobs in this manner is a false equivalence and a strawman.
- wccrawford 8y ago
  I'd argue that companies can provide everyone offices for the same reason that companies can't provide everyone robots that do the dangerous labor: It's expensive.

chaostheory 8y ago

For me it's not the noise; headphones take care of that. The problem is the visual distractions. People walking to and fro. If you know one of those people, then the chances of a distraction goes up even more. I guess a future way to mitigate it would be a high res VR HMD

satokema_work 8y ago
This. Our desks unfortunately have to be so close as to face each other, and anytime the guy across from me is in the office I have to deal with distractions every time he wants to stretch, stand up, sit down, have a conversation with someone, etc. etc. Now we actually have a flexible remote policy, but that's an entirely different can of worms, as I liked having a place to do deep work in that wasn't a coffee shop. My home is a bit too distracting sometimes.
- EForEndeavour 8y ago
  Your comment is a nice example of how low-frequency distractions (A specific coworker shifting position in your field of view) can be much worse than being immersed in a high volume of distractions (strangers milling about in a coffee shop that's probably playing music, running grinders, yelling names, etc.)

vbuwivbiu 8y ago

couldn't agree more

makecheck 8y ago

Yes, and headphones are definitely not comfortable to wear constantly anyway. And sounds get through. Private office, closing door. This should be the minimum price to hire someone.

loudtieblahblah 8y ago

It's about more than noise. Cube walls, over the years kept getting shorter and shorter until finally doing away with them entirely. The point is - the business requires that you have zero privacy or any kind of time to yourself in any capacity outside of assigned breaks. The whole purpose is to create a panopticon of a work place, where even when you aren't being watched you modify your behavior on the possibility that you're being watched Open offices are inherently authoritarian in a corporate/cyberpunk sort of way. That's their primary function. All this crap about collaboration and fostering open communication is just the face of it.