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> Vision impaired persons do not benefit from CSS or images They might. You probably mean blind people.

by interfixus 8y ago

austincheney 8y ago
No, I mean vision impaired. There are all kinds of different vision disabilities besides blindness and color blindness.
- interfixus 8y ago
  Yes, exactly. And many such impairments will not prevent you benefitting from layout, colors, typography, images, and sundry other kinds of graphical trickery.
  - austincheney 8y ago
    Sounds like you are confusing non-blindness for normal functionality. Fortunately, Wikipedia has a page for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_impairment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_impairment The idea of accessibility is that a product/service is available to a wide audience regardless of their physical/cognitive impairment. It is still discriminatory if some user might be capable of enjoying visual eye candy if they must struggle to do so due to an impairment and are denied access to that content otherwise.
    - shawnz 8y ago
      I don't think you are understanding the parent correctly. They are saying a person with a partial visual impairment can still benefit from a well-designed visual page layout, because a person with partial visual impairment might still use vision in some ways. So well-designed CSS and images DO benefit those individuals. You seem to be implying that anyone with a visual impairment, even a partial one, would prefer to browse with CSS and images off. But that's not necessarily the case.
      - austincheney 8y ago
        What does that have to do with accessibility? > You seem to be implying that anyone with a visual impairment, even a partial one I am not. Well written CSS, a subset of usability, is irrelevant to accessibility.
        shawnz 8y ago
        > Well written CSS, a subset of usability, is irrelevant to accessibility. Says who? https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/#accessible-usable https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-... > There is a significant overlap between accessibility and usability. ISO 9241-11, defines usability as: The “extent to which a product can be used by specified users to achieve specified goals effectively, efficiently and with satisfaction in a specified context of use”. This could address accessibility when: “specified users” includes people with a range of disabilities, and “specified context of use” includes accessibility considerations such as assistive technologies. Let me give an example: If I put icons on my buttons to improve the usability of my app, but the icons break at high zoom levels, then is that accessible? No, but you'd never know unless you do accessibility testing with CSS and images turned on.
        austincheney 8y ago
        > but the icons break at high zoom levels, then is that accessible? Yes, it is still accessible, but usability is decreased. There are multiple ways to activate a button. Accessibility and usability are not contested or mutually exclusive qualities. You can have both great CSS and great accessibility at the same time.
        shawnz 8y ago
        Bad usability precludes good accessibility. You seem to be implying that accessibility is just about being able to access the content. That's wrong, accessibility is about ease of access to the content. If what you were saying were true, then semantically correct HTML wouldn't be a WCAG requirement. But semantically correct HTML improves usability for people using assistive technologies, thus it is an important part of designing accessible content. Accessibility IS dependent on usability. If just the ability to access the content was the only factor in designing accessible content, then you could just tell your blind clients to view the page source and read it character by character. But obviously that would not be acceptable because it creates a significant barrier for usability that sighted clients would not face. Designing accessible content is about removing barriers that make it harder for people with disabilities to access the content, and bad usability is one of those barriers.

> Vision impaired persons do not benefit from CSS or images They might. You probably mean blind people.

austincheney 8y ago

No, I mean vision impaired. There are all kinds of different vision disabilities besides blindness and color blindness.

interfixus 8y ago
Yes, exactly. And many such impairments will not prevent you benefitting from layout, colors, typography, images, and sundry other kinds of graphical trickery.
- austincheney 8y ago
  Sounds like you are confusing non-blindness for normal functionality. Fortunately, Wikipedia has a page for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_impairment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_impairment The idea of accessibility is that a product/service is available to a wide audience regardless of their physical/cognitive impairment. It is still discriminatory if some user might be capable of enjoying visual eye candy if they must struggle to do so due to an impairment and are denied access to that content otherwise.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    I don't think you are understanding the parent correctly. They are saying a person with a partial visual impairment can still benefit from a well-designed visual page layout, because a person with partial visual impairment might still use vision in some ways. So well-designed CSS and images DO benefit those individuals. You seem to be implying that anyone with a visual impairment, even a partial one, would prefer to browse with CSS and images off. But that's not necessarily the case.
    - austincheney 8y ago
      What does that have to do with accessibility? > You seem to be implying that anyone with a visual impairment, even a partial one I am not. Well written CSS, a subset of usability, is irrelevant to accessibility.
      - shawnz 8y ago
        > Well written CSS, a subset of usability, is irrelevant to accessibility. Says who? https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/#accessible-usable https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-... > There is a significant overlap between accessibility and usability. ISO 9241-11, defines usability as: The “extent to which a product can be used by specified users to achieve specified goals effectively, efficiently and with satisfaction in a specified context of use”. This could address accessibility when: “specified users” includes people with a range of disabilities, and “specified context of use” includes accessibility considerations such as assistive technologies. Let me give an example: If I put icons on my buttons to improve the usability of my app, but the icons break at high zoom levels, then is that accessible? No, but you'd never know unless you do accessibility testing with CSS and images turned on.
        austincheney 8y ago
        > but the icons break at high zoom levels, then is that accessible? Yes, it is still accessible, but usability is decreased. There are multiple ways to activate a button. Accessibility and usability are not contested or mutually exclusive qualities. You can have both great CSS and great accessibility at the same time.
        shawnz 8y ago
        Bad usability precludes good accessibility. You seem to be implying that accessibility is just about being able to access the content. That's wrong, accessibility is about ease of access to the content. If what you were saying were true, then semantically correct HTML wouldn't be a WCAG requirement. But semantically correct HTML improves usability for people using assistive technologies, thus it is an important part of designing accessible content. Accessibility IS dependent on usability. If just the ability to access the content was the only factor in designing accessible content, then you could just tell your blind clients to view the page source and read it character by character. But obviously that would not be acceptable because it creates a significant barrier for usability that sighted clients would not face. Designing accessible content is about removing barriers that make it harder for people with disabilities to access the content, and bad usability is one of those barriers.