7 ms·
Local Variables
- ahaferburg 8y agoFor those wondering, it looks like this is the final version of the latest chapter of a book that's work in progress. Fresh out of the press, if you want. https://twitter.com/munificentbob/status/1109876226104057856 https://twitter.com/munificentbob/status/1109876226104057856
- smueller1234 8y agoI thought the choice to implement locals and all of their semantics using just the main stack was both curious and surprising. (I'm most familiar with perl's implementation, which requires a bunch of stacks flying in for formation to implement it's complex scoping semantics.) In the book, Bob says he designed the language such that it would be possible to use just one stack. What does that mean? It sounds very discouraging for newbies because it implies a lot of foresight or trial and error. Overall, while this is among the most interesting subjects covered, I find the chapter a bit lacking in either one of two ways: either it is for beginners, and then the chapter feels very magical or is for intermediates and then a bit of extra verbiage on the design choices that led you there would be appropriate. Nitpick: I would totally have stopped low and done the -1 initialization trick as well. But yuck. ;)
- Drup 8y agoThe constraint on the language for this to work well is fairly natural and is actually described in the article: the language should follow lexical scoping. Unfortunately, since some dynamic languages do not respect lexical scoping, programmers in these languages tends to think of local variables and scoping as something very complicated. It doesn't need to be.
- chrisseaton 8y agoYou can have plain lexical scoping but still be unable to use a simple stack in all cases, due to closures. The author describes this additional constraint that they have on top of lexical scoping. > We have to be OK with only allocating new locals on the top of the stack, and we have to accept that we can only discard a local when nothing is above it on the stack.
- Drup 8y agoWell, there are lot's of well known compiler techniques to handle closures in that context. It's a little bit out of scope of the article, but it's not very complicated either.
- chrisseaton 8y agoI know that but you said the constraint needed was lexical scoping - that constraint is insufficient and you need additional constraints on the language design.
- klmr 8y agoIf you’re happy for the compiler to copy variables out of the closed-over scope when returning the closure, this can still be handled with a single stack. That’s what C++ lambdas do: “Closures” in C++ are locally-allocated structures that hold used variables as local (stack-allocated) member variables. Creating a closure copies closed-over variables (or pointers/references to them). Returning a closure from a function returns a logical copy (which can be optimised away) of the structure. (Don’t get me wrong, this obviously still implies additional constraints, but it gets fairly close to universal closures.)
- chrisseaton 8y agoI don't really understand that point of view - you can use a single stack as long as you actually use the heap in addition to a single stack?
- kccqzy 8y agoC++ closures do not, by themselves, use the heap. Every closure in C++ gets translated by the compiler to a unique type that contains either copies of or references to the objects being closed over. If you choose to use copies, then whether or not anything is allocated on the heap depends on the copy constructor; if you use references then there is no copying, but it's up to you to ensure lifetime.
- ahaferburg 8y agoNote that in chapter 3.8.1 he writes "As you can imagine, implementing [closures] adds some complexity because we can no longer assume variable scope works strictly like a stack where local variables evaporate the moment the function returns. We’re going to have a fun time learning how to make these work and do so efficiently."
- imAsking9836 8y agoBeen following this book for a bit but I can't quite find a good way to learn from it. Should I first read each chapter and create my own language? implement his language using language other than Java? Type by hand his source code following along and trying to comprehend the details?
- eatonphil 8y agoPick one! :) But I'm curious (I write some similar posts) if this is because of the way the sections are written that inhibits following along?
- bibyte 8y ago> Type by hand his source code following along and trying to comprehend the details? Isn't that the only way to learn from any programming book ? At least that's what I have always done. I am curious as to what other way people learn.
- dahfizz 8y agoI've found that it's easy to zone out if I'm just typing exactly what's on the page in front of me. Following along but in a different language can keep you more engaged and think more about what's going on.
- imAsking9836 8y agoIt also becomes a bit of a battle against the desire of copying/pasting the code (It's even more tempting since it's an e-book with the code already formatted), not to mention that some parts are tedious to type like enumerators with many string elements
- bibyte 8y agoThat's a good point. I also have a problem with zoning out when reading technical books. I should give your technique a try.
- rhizome31 8y ago
- TheAsprngHacker 8y agoThe chapter raises the question of the semantics of { var a = "outer"; { var a = a; } } and { var a = a; } . Some programming languages have the idea of "let rec" versus "nonrecursive let." In Haskell, `let` is recursive, and because Haskell is lazy, `let a = a` is a nonterminating computation. In OCaml, `let` is non-recursive and `let rec` is recursive, and only certain recursive definitions are allowed. (You can do `let rec a = 0::a`, but not `let rec a = a`.) Scheme has `let`, where none of the variables are in scope for any definition, `let*`, where each variable is in scope in the successive definitions, and `letrec`, where all of the variable are in scope for all definitions. According to http://www.r6rs.org/final/r6rs.pdf http://www.r6rs.org/final/r6rs.pdf, Scheme initializes letrec'd variables to a "black hole."
- AnaniasAnanas 8y ago> and because Haskell is lazy, `let a = a` is a nonterminating computation I am pretty sure that lazyness has nothing to do with this.
- TheAsprngHacker 8y agoMaybe I worded that wrong. In OCaml and other strict languages, `let (rec) a = a` doesn't make sense, because `a` doesn't have a value when you are defining it to be itself. When I write `let a = a` in Haskell, what happens is that `a` is set to a thunk whose code pointer points to its own evaluation code. When the thunk gets forced, it tries to evaluate itself. Doing my research, I was wrong about the "nonterminating computation" part; when the thunk gets forced, it gets marked as a "black hole," detecting the infinite recursion in this case.
- z3t4 8y agoI think functional scope was a step forward from block scope, so I got very sad when block scope got into JavaScript and is now the standard. JS still allow you to use function scope, and I still do, but most tutorials now use block scope. With function scope I can declare variables where they are used, they will be automatically hoisted. This also solves the issue with using a variable before they are declared ... you declare variables where they are used. Function scope also encourages the use of functions and closures, which makes (async) programing more fun.
- pinjasaur 8y agoI found the page layout extremely well-suited to grokking the content better. The right "sidebar" (in quotes because it's not a dedicated column, just emulated using CSS positioning) containing notes for the text & code along with figures worked great. I may have to look into recreating this kind of layout for my blog or other documentation.