4 ms·

> ie if you take breaks from work and instead of wasting time on HN or reading news you bang out code on your personal projects, I'm not going to be enthused ab

> ie if you take breaks from work and instead of wasting time on HN or reading news you bang out code on your personal projects, I'm not going to be enthused about that. But if you generally work 10-6 or so, and by 610 you've shut our laptop and you're coding away on your personal laptop? Great, have fun. Please don't burn out. That works well enough for employees who work 8 uninterrupted hours per day 5 days per week as their work week. (Even for them, sometimes copyrightable personal projects are different enough to serve the same mentally restorative purpose during the workday that browsing the Internet can, like if it's poetry or designing a sweater.) But not everyone performs best or happiest like that. What about the employees that typically work 11-2, go for a gym break 2-4, work 4-6, go for dinner and time with their family, and then work 8pm-2am... but mix some personal side projects into the 8pm-2am part and think up advances on those personal projects while at the gym, plus do extra work for both personal and employer purposes on weekends? Yes, these patterns are consistent with people I know in the industry. (I'm combining multiple people for anonymity.) Notice those hours added up to well more than 8 work hours per day and more than 40 per week. If such people can't interleave personal and work stuff, they'll probably spend less time on work stuff overall and give less productivity to the company (if they don't switch to a more permissive employer).

x0x0 8y ago
bluntly, not every employee is for every employer. And this is also for the protection of the employee. I'm a founder, and I can make pretty durable promises, but even my promises aren't 100% durable. If we get bought, or we don't perform and I get fired, my promises no longer matter. The employee doesn't want to be in a situation where he or she has built something valuable, I'm no longer in a position to keep my commitment, and the new owners want a piece. I see that you're SRE/ops so your work is naturally more bursty, so that may color your perspective. For my company, I'm not sure how we would deal with that, except we don't really keep people on call outside of hours. We hired ops living in E Europe so they come on as we go to bed. edit: given your suggestions of poetry or sweaters, sure, knock yourself out. I still won't be stoked about working a different business during my hours.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Some of the people I combined in my example are SRE/ops like me (though as of recently I'm now more manager than IC); some are product people, some oversee a bunch of different engineering teams, and I'm including both ICs and executives and many different ages in this amalgam... lots of productive people are bursty. It's chiefly the young single typical-lifestyle neurotypical software application developer that isn't. There are better ways to protect the employee, though: the legalese can omit time of day / day of week / place of work / equipment used as conditions of IP assignment. My current employer does this. (No it's not based in the US, but it is a startup funded by both US and home-country VCs). Of course, the employer does own stuff created within the course of employment. Not a problem in any of the plausible future successful or failed exit scenarios. Last thought: many good people in tech, very much able to do the jobs you ask of them, have ADHD, or kids, or athletic hobbies, or other reasons to do a bursty workday. Sometimes people seemingly outside these categories may turn out to be in them (e.g. new parents). Being incompatible with such workers makes it harder to hire and keep the talent tech companies need to succeed. (Sometimes it's illegal too, but that's a separate conversation.)
  - x0x0 8y ago
    Omitting equipment-used from IP ownership is an absolute non-starter. Similarly for time of day; I have to have clean ownership of IP for future funding and/or acquisition. I feel the same for people who require very bursty working hours. Part of the job -- perhaps the most important part! -- is to collaborate with your team. If you want to spend 90m during the workday to go to the gym, make sure you're not holding your teammates back. We currently have two employees that do that and it works well for everyone. If you require 3 hour breaks mid afternoon, you're probably not going to work here.
    - jkaplowitz 8y ago
      Well, all I can do is elaborate on my first-hand anecdote as evidence that it can work in the VC-funded world: my employer has exactly the same corporate-future concerns you listed, uses contract language from a well-known law firm intended to protect their needs as they grow, did not receive any input from me before adopting legalese with these properties, and has already received multiple funding rounds. And, everyone I've described manages to collaborate enough during the workday (and asynchronously at other times) despite often taking multiple hours per day for things like gym or family. I'm happy that I can hire such people, and I wish you luck in evolving your company to the point where you can similarly access the full pool of qualified candidates. I think we've continued this conversation thread as much as we usefully can; thanks for an interesting exchange!

x0x0 8y ago

bluntly, not every employee is for every employer. And this is also for the protection of the employee. I'm a founder, and I can make pretty durable promises, but even my promises aren't 100% durable. If we get bought, or we don't perform and I get fired, my promises no longer matter. The employee doesn't want to be in a situation where he or she has built something valuable, I'm no longer in a position to keep my commitment, and the new owners want a piece. I see that you're SRE/ops so your work is naturally more bursty, so that may color your perspective. For my company, I'm not sure how we would deal with that, except we don't really keep people on call outside of hours. We hired ops living in E Europe so they come on as we go to bed. edit: given your suggestions of poetry or sweaters, sure, knock yourself out. I still won't be stoked about working a different business during my hours.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
Some of the people I combined in my example are SRE/ops like me (though as of recently I'm now more manager than IC); some are product people, some oversee a bunch of different engineering teams, and I'm including both ICs and executives and many different ages in this amalgam... lots of productive people are bursty. It's chiefly the young single typical-lifestyle neurotypical software application developer that isn't. There are better ways to protect the employee, though: the legalese can omit time of day / day of week / place of work / equipment used as conditions of IP assignment. My current employer does this. (No it's not based in the US, but it is a startup funded by both US and home-country VCs). Of course, the employer does own stuff created within the course of employment. Not a problem in any of the plausible future successful or failed exit scenarios. Last thought: many good people in tech, very much able to do the jobs you ask of them, have ADHD, or kids, or athletic hobbies, or other reasons to do a bursty workday. Sometimes people seemingly outside these categories may turn out to be in them (e.g. new parents). Being incompatible with such workers makes it harder to hire and keep the talent tech companies need to succeed. (Sometimes it's illegal too, but that's a separate conversation.)
- x0x0 8y ago
  Omitting equipment-used from IP ownership is an absolute non-starter. Similarly for time of day; I have to have clean ownership of IP for future funding and/or acquisition. I feel the same for people who require very bursty working hours. Part of the job -- perhaps the most important part! -- is to collaborate with your team. If you want to spend 90m during the workday to go to the gym, make sure you're not holding your teammates back. We currently have two employees that do that and it works well for everyone. If you require 3 hour breaks mid afternoon, you're probably not going to work here.
  - jkaplowitz 8y ago
    Well, all I can do is elaborate on my first-hand anecdote as evidence that it can work in the VC-funded world: my employer has exactly the same corporate-future concerns you listed, uses contract language from a well-known law firm intended to protect their needs as they grow, did not receive any input from me before adopting legalese with these properties, and has already received multiple funding rounds. And, everyone I've described manages to collaborate enough during the workday (and asynchronously at other times) despite often taking multiple hours per day for things like gym or family. I'm happy that I can hire such people, and I wish you luck in evolving your company to the point where you can similarly access the full pool of qualified candidates. I think we've continued this conversation thread as much as we usefully can; thanks for an interesting exchange!