7 ms·

What 'terrible' things have happened with Trump? Im in the us and it's business as usual.

pgeorgi 8y ago
ICE detaining families, splitting kids from their parents (apparently with no idea who belongs to whom), with work done by minimum wage paid security folks - some of whom appear to see unfettered access to these kids as a bonus and molest them?
- DrScump 8y ago
  ICE detaining families, splitting kids from their parents Both were widespread under Obama.
  - GunlogAlm 8y ago
    This doesn't appear to have been the case: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/did-the-obama-administration-separate-families/ https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/did-the-obama-administrati... https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/fact-check-did-obama-administration-separate-families-n884856 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/...
    - brightball 8y ago
      DHS does not get along with these agencies apparently and have put out full statements on the matter. https://m.facebook.com/homelandsecurity/posts/2231821660163791 https://m.facebook.com/homelandsecurity/posts/22318216601637...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - leereeves 8y ago
      According to the FactCheck article you linked, the law requires that families either be separated or released. > In 2016, a court ruling limited how long children with their parents could be in family detention centers. Obama released families. Trump has taken a stricter stance against immigration, which requires some unpleasant enforcement, but once again according to FactCheck, he did order that families be kept together as long as possible: > On June 20, President Donald Trump signed an executive order directing Nielsen to keep families in custody together “during the pendency of any criminal improper entry or immigration proceedings involving their members” at least “to the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations.”
      - cbg0 8y ago
        > but once again according to FactCheck, he did order that families be kept together as long as possible That order came in pretty late. Thousands of children may have been separated before that order was put out: https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-BL-18-00511.pdf https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-BL-18-00511.pdf
        leereeves 8y ago
        Yes, because Trump doesn't really have the legal power to ignore the Flores settlement with an executive order, but the public pressure made it impossible for anyone to challenge the EO. Out of curiousity, how would you suggest people trying to enter the United States with children should be handled, without just allowing them to enter freely?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - netsharc 8y ago
    The 2 replies under your comment dispute this, but does it make it okay if "both sides" dit it? It's still fucking evil. Obama continued the policy of drone terrorism/murders, that's not okay either. Man oh man, America "the shining beacon of freedom and democracy". "But what about the infants being torn away from their parents?" "Don't worry, the other side did it too, so we're not the bad guys here!"
    - belorn 8y ago
      When family separation was international news I tried to see what my country (Sweden) does. What I saw was basically that if a crime was serious enough that you put a person in temporary holding cells, any children under their charge is sent to an adult relative, friends, or so called family home if there is no other options. Sweden doesn't have orphanages and instead have a system which is more akin to temporary adoption where the child enter an existing family. The process for infants is identical. For Sweden, the rules in regard to temporary holding is also very clear. If the crime has a serious enough potential punishment and the investigation risk getting interference, or there is a significant flight risk, then the person under investigation is put in holding for as long as any of the above qualify. If Sweden ever get the same situation as the US and the government wanted to prevent family separation, what they would have to do is either write a special exception and override existing laws or change the punishment down to a fine. Personally I don't find the law evil. The US implementation could use some major redesign in order to prioritize the child needs over that of the parents, but children should never end up in jail because their parents broke the law. The solution to the US issue must thus be in fixing so that immigrants don't break the law when they want to apply for asylum/legal immigration. That is what we did during the refugee crisis.
faitswulff 8y ago
Not sure if trolling, but look up family separation, Vietnamese deportation, the sales of national park lands, incitement to violence against journalists, the rise in hate crimes, etc
- leereeves 8y ago
  Why do you include > the sales of national park lands How is that comparable to what the Germans or Russians did? For that matter, how is any of that comparable to gulags or Auschwitz?
  - pgeorgi 8y ago
    The forger also helped people refuse participating in the Vietnam war or get out of war-time Algeria. Concentration camps or Gulags aren't the only reason for people needing to leave the country without its government learning about it.
    - leereeves 8y ago
      Are you suggesting forgers should forge documents to help people illegally enter the United States, to get around Trump's restrictions?
      - pgeorgi 8y ago
        I don't care about the United States. Other than that, "needing to leave the country" (what I said) is very different from "illegally enter" (what you said), starting with the direction of travel.
        leereeves 8y ago
        I agree, which is why I was confused. If any of Trump's policies have led someone to feel they need to leave the US, they don't need forged documents to do it.
  - 7952 8y ago
0003 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy#Administration_issues_%22zero-tolerance%22_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_se...
sk5t 8y ago
The terrible thing is that the nation has elected an incompetent babyman as its global representative and commander in chief of the world's most powerful military. The good thing is that the outcome suggests that the country is somewhat fault-tolerant in the face of ridiculous leadership.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  I'd add a 'so far' as a caveat. This isn't over yet, unfortunately and typically the venom is in the tail.
roenxi 8y ago
It doesn't actually matter what has or has not happened under Trump. There is a sizable contingent of people on the left who believe the President of the USA is a criminal supported mainly by racists. I personally disagree but those beliefs open up too very easy prongs of attack to counter 'it can't happen here' arguments: * They likely believe the situation went from everything being fine to everything being not fine at extreme speed in 2016 * They have just been subjected to 2 years of evidence of their political tribe's relative impotence removing a criminal from high office Those beliefs should be a lot easier to push the idea that government capability is the threat, not the governments current intentions.

ICE detaining families, splitting kids from their parents (apparently with no idea who belongs to whom), with work done by minimum wage paid security folks - some of whom appear to see unfettered access to these kids as a bonus and molest them?

DrScump 8y ago
ICE detaining families, splitting kids from their parents Both were widespread under Obama.
- GunlogAlm 8y ago
  This doesn't appear to have been the case: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/did-the-obama-administration-separate-families/ https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/did-the-obama-administrati... https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/fact-check-did-obama-administration-separate-families-n884856 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/...
  - brightball 8y ago
    DHS does not get along with these agencies apparently and have put out full statements on the matter. https://m.facebook.com/homelandsecurity/posts/2231821660163791 https://m.facebook.com/homelandsecurity/posts/22318216601637...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - leereeves 8y ago
    According to the FactCheck article you linked, the law requires that families either be separated or released. > In 2016, a court ruling limited how long children with their parents could be in family detention centers. Obama released families. Trump has taken a stricter stance against immigration, which requires some unpleasant enforcement, but once again according to FactCheck, he did order that families be kept together as long as possible: > On June 20, President Donald Trump signed an executive order directing Nielsen to keep families in custody together “during the pendency of any criminal improper entry or immigration proceedings involving their members” at least “to the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations.”
    - cbg0 8y ago
      > but once again according to FactCheck, he did order that families be kept together as long as possible That order came in pretty late. Thousands of children may have been separated before that order was put out: https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-BL-18-00511.pdf https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-BL-18-00511.pdf
      - leereeves 8y ago
        Yes, because Trump doesn't really have the legal power to ignore the Flores settlement with an executive order, but the public pressure made it impossible for anyone to challenge the EO. Out of curiousity, how would you suggest people trying to enter the United States with children should be handled, without just allowing them to enter freely?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- netsharc 8y ago
  The 2 replies under your comment dispute this, but does it make it okay if "both sides" dit it? It's still fucking evil. Obama continued the policy of drone terrorism/murders, that's not okay either. Man oh man, America "the shining beacon of freedom and democracy". "But what about the infants being torn away from their parents?" "Don't worry, the other side did it too, so we're not the bad guys here!"
  - belorn 8y ago
    When family separation was international news I tried to see what my country (Sweden) does. What I saw was basically that if a crime was serious enough that you put a person in temporary holding cells, any children under their charge is sent to an adult relative, friends, or so called family home if there is no other options. Sweden doesn't have orphanages and instead have a system which is more akin to temporary adoption where the child enter an existing family. The process for infants is identical. For Sweden, the rules in regard to temporary holding is also very clear. If the crime has a serious enough potential punishment and the investigation risk getting interference, or there is a significant flight risk, then the person under investigation is put in holding for as long as any of the above qualify. If Sweden ever get the same situation as the US and the government wanted to prevent family separation, what they would have to do is either write a special exception and override existing laws or change the punishment down to a fine. Personally I don't find the law evil. The US implementation could use some major redesign in order to prioritize the child needs over that of the parents, but children should never end up in jail because their parents broke the law. The solution to the US issue must thus be in fixing so that immigrants don't break the law when they want to apply for asylum/legal immigration. That is what we did during the refugee crisis.

faitswulff 8y ago

Not sure if trolling, but look up family separation, Vietnamese deportation, the sales of national park lands, incitement to violence against journalists, the rise in hate crimes, etc

leereeves 8y ago
Why do you include > the sales of national park lands How is that comparable to what the Germans or Russians did? For that matter, how is any of that comparable to gulags or Auschwitz?
- pgeorgi 8y ago
  The forger also helped people refuse participating in the Vietnam war or get out of war-time Algeria. Concentration camps or Gulags aren't the only reason for people needing to leave the country without its government learning about it.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    Are you suggesting forgers should forge documents to help people illegally enter the United States, to get around Trump's restrictions?
    - pgeorgi 8y ago
      I don't care about the United States. Other than that, "needing to leave the country" (what I said) is very different from "illegally enter" (what you said), starting with the direction of travel.
      - leereeves 8y ago
        I agree, which is why I was confused. If any of Trump's policies have led someone to feel they need to leave the US, they don't need forged documents to do it.
- 7952 8y ago

0003 8y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy#Administration_issues_%22zero-tolerance%22_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_se...

sk5t 8y ago

The terrible thing is that the nation has elected an incompetent babyman as its global representative and commander in chief of the world's most powerful military. The good thing is that the outcome suggests that the country is somewhat fault-tolerant in the face of ridiculous leadership.

jacquesm 8y ago
I'd add a 'so far' as a caveat. This isn't over yet, unfortunately and typically the venom is in the tail.

roenxi 8y ago

It doesn't actually matter what has or has not happened under Trump. There is a sizable contingent of people on the left who believe the President of the USA is a criminal supported mainly by racists. I personally disagree but those beliefs open up too very easy prongs of attack to counter 'it can't happen here' arguments: * They likely believe the situation went from everything being fine to everything being not fine at extreme speed in 2016 * They have just been subjected to 2 years of evidence of their political tribe's relative impotence removing a criminal from high office Those beliefs should be a lot easier to push the idea that government capability is the threat, not the governments current intentions.