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Wow. It's amazing the lengths people go to to maintain their delusions. Show me one python IDE in action doing effective refactoring across a large, nontrivial

Wow. It's amazing the lengths people go to to maintain their delusions. Show me one python IDE in action doing effective refactoring across a large, nontrivial python code base. And you didn't even mention concurrency and skipped over it altogether! > use type hints or one of the many libs that enforce types... As if that's pythonic. Heard of duck typing? And those are things you have to do yourself, as additional work and maintenance rather than getting it free because it's a feature of the language. And you don't always have full control over the stack. Is there an IDE that will guarantee that no runtime errors will take place due to typing? > Adoption rates keep exploding Because python made its way into the rapidly growing machine learning market. Python is great for writing glue code/scripts because it's easy to extend with C. Everyone and their grandma getting into data science use python. > I have no problem with that, just don’t try to sell it to me on technical grounds, because it looks very much like you have none. Looks like you are just not willing to accept or even recognize any valid criticism of Python. This type of fanaticism towards the language is not the first time I am seeing it.

mylons 8y ago
i’ve used pycharm to refactor 100k+ LOC bases. pycharm also uses the type hints that are PART OF THE LANGUAGE (aka pythonic) as of python 3.x and enforces them.
- computerex 8y ago
  I said I need to see it in action on youtube or something, somewhat like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjLAoYxSLTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjLAoYxSLTE Anyone can claim anything without providing sufficient proof. I once refactored a 200 million line assembly program over lunch.
  - mylons 8y ago
    ok. tell me what i’ve done and haven’t done. you’re the expert.
    - computerex 8y ago
      Not telling you what you have done or not done. But this is the internet, you need to provide proof in order for your statements to be taken seriously. I am not telling you to do anything, by all means don't provide any proof.
      - hello_moto 8y ago
        > But this is the internet I find that on the internet, after proofs are given, more disagreement ensues. When one mind's is set, is set in stone. Proof or without proof.
    - computerex 8y ago
      > pycharm also uses the type hints that are PART OF THE LANGUAGE (aka pythonic) as of python 3.x and enforces them. Just goes to show you how incredibly messy the transition from 2 to 3 really is. Duck typing and typing hinting are two fundamentally different approaches of doing the same thing that rub against one another. That's one more thing adding onto the long list of things that make it a pain in the ass to migrate from python2 to python3.
      - duckerude 8y ago
        They're optional, and it's possible (and not unusual) to use them in Python 2-compatible code with an alternative comment-based syntax and a backport of the typing module. It's possible to start using type hints without migrating to Python 3, and it's possible to migrate to Python 3 without using type hints. They're almost orthogonal. It's weird to bring it up like this - do you have any experience migrating code to Python 3?
        vonseel 8y ago
        I’ve done all of that. I guess it depends on the codebase, but transitioning to Python 3 wasn’t so difficult, I suppose it should only be easier now than it was in 2016/17. Coming back to Python in 2019, it seems almost mandatory to be on Python 3.4+. I can not imagine someone still using Python 2.7. Except for this one place I worked that was stuck in the last century, God bless their little souls.
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  I've used Pycharm extensively in production. It's hands down the best Python IDE, but the refactoring is nowhere near as reliable as with IDEA, Golang etc. Having a static type system provides refactoring certainty that simply cannot be achieved with a dynamic language. You cannot do with heuristics what you can do with static types.
  - sandGorgon 8y ago
    Pycharm is built on top of IDEA.
    - AsyncAwait 8y ago
      Yes, I know, but it doesn't provide the same quality of refactoring as IDEA can for Java due to the dynamic nature of Python.
sgillen 8y ago
With regards to refactoring I’ve never had a problem using pycharm for refactoring python. But that is literally the only tool I can say that for.
dang 8y ago
You crossed into personal attack here, and incivility elsewhere in this thread. That's not ok on HN. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here from now on, regardless of how wrong someone is, or you feel they are?
- computerex 8y ago
  > You crossed into personal attack here, and incivility elsewhere in this thread. I disagree with your classifications, and will not be making any adjustments to my behavior/posting habits, thank you very much =)

mylons 8y ago

i’ve used pycharm to refactor 100k+ LOC bases. pycharm also uses the type hints that are PART OF THE LANGUAGE (aka pythonic) as of python 3.x and enforces them.

computerex 8y ago
I said I need to see it in action on youtube or something, somewhat like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjLAoYxSLTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjLAoYxSLTE Anyone can claim anything without providing sufficient proof. I once refactored a 200 million line assembly program over lunch.
- mylons 8y ago
  ok. tell me what i’ve done and haven’t done. you’re the expert.
  - computerex 8y ago
    Not telling you what you have done or not done. But this is the internet, you need to provide proof in order for your statements to be taken seriously. I am not telling you to do anything, by all means don't provide any proof.
    - hello_moto 8y ago
      > But this is the internet I find that on the internet, after proofs are given, more disagreement ensues. When one mind's is set, is set in stone. Proof or without proof.
  - computerex 8y ago
    > pycharm also uses the type hints that are PART OF THE LANGUAGE (aka pythonic) as of python 3.x and enforces them. Just goes to show you how incredibly messy the transition from 2 to 3 really is. Duck typing and typing hinting are two fundamentally different approaches of doing the same thing that rub against one another. That's one more thing adding onto the long list of things that make it a pain in the ass to migrate from python2 to python3.
    - duckerude 8y ago
      They're optional, and it's possible (and not unusual) to use them in Python 2-compatible code with an alternative comment-based syntax and a backport of the typing module. It's possible to start using type hints without migrating to Python 3, and it's possible to migrate to Python 3 without using type hints. They're almost orthogonal. It's weird to bring it up like this - do you have any experience migrating code to Python 3?
      - vonseel 8y ago
        I’ve done all of that. I guess it depends on the codebase, but transitioning to Python 3 wasn’t so difficult, I suppose it should only be easier now than it was in 2016/17. Coming back to Python in 2019, it seems almost mandatory to be on Python 3.4+. I can not imagine someone still using Python 2.7. Except for this one place I worked that was stuck in the last century, God bless their little souls.
AsyncAwait 8y ago
I've used Pycharm extensively in production. It's hands down the best Python IDE, but the refactoring is nowhere near as reliable as with IDEA, Golang etc. Having a static type system provides refactoring certainty that simply cannot be achieved with a dynamic language. You cannot do with heuristics what you can do with static types.
- sandGorgon 8y ago
  Pycharm is built on top of IDEA.
  - AsyncAwait 8y ago
    Yes, I know, but it doesn't provide the same quality of refactoring as IDEA can for Java due to the dynamic nature of Python.

sgillen 8y ago

With regards to refactoring I’ve never had a problem using pycharm for refactoring python. But that is literally the only tool I can say that for.

dang 8y ago

You crossed into personal attack here, and incivility elsewhere in this thread. That's not ok on HN. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here from now on, regardless of how wrong someone is, or you feel they are?

computerex 8y ago
> You crossed into personal attack here, and incivility elsewhere in this thread. I disagree with your classifications, and will not be making any adjustments to my behavior/posting habits, thank you very much =)