6 ms·

I think Berlin, Germany provides a much better value for money for software developers, because one would need to earn 200k in Zurich to maintain the same stand

by krn 8y ago

I think Berlin, Germany provides a much better value for money for software developers, because one would need to earn 200k in Zurich to maintain the same standard of life that requires only 100k in Berlin[1]. Switzerland is a great choice for someone who just wants to save as much money as he can during a short period of time before moving somewhere else, or for people working in non-tech industries, who would make very little doing the same job in other parts of Europe. Still, there are much more enjoyable places to be in Europe for someone without kids, and much more cheaper for someone with. [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=Switzerland&city2=Zurich https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

Varqu 8y ago
Good points. Berlin has definitively a bigger Startup scene and generally more companies to pick from than Zurich. In terms of salary you have to also account for taxes (100k in Germany will be taxed at around 45% and in Switzerland (Zurich) around 30%.
- ramblerman 8y ago
  I also think Berlin is a city full of culture and brimming with life. As a single male/female, zurich and geneva can get quite dull imo
  - Varqu 8y ago
    On the other hand, in Zurich you have a crystal clear lake where you can swim in the summer. Take a 1.5 hour train and you are in the Alps.
    - krn 8y ago
      > in Zurich you have a crystal clear lake where you can swim There are more than 30 lakes in Berlin[1], and more than 100 lakes around it[2]. [1] https://www.visitberlin.de/en/lakes https://www.visitberlin.de/en/lakes [2] https://www.brandenburg-tourism.com/detail/id/17723/theme/a-z.html https://www.brandenburg-tourism.com/detail/id/17723/theme/a-...
- austinjp 8y ago
  Well yes, but some Swiss taxes are applied at the point of sale e.g. trash bags, which are very expensive. It's not straightforward to compare salaries in these circumstances.
  - kmbriedis 8y ago
    2$ for a bag is expensive (in Zurich)?
  - j7ake 8y ago
    You can buy a bag a day and it will cost you less than half a percent of your net income.
hocuspocus 8y ago
Unless you're spending all your income, you cannot use Numbeo and other CoL calculators to make comparisons between gross salaries in different countries. I'm Swiss and I worked in Berlin, I guarantee you absolutely don't need to make twice the salary to keep your standard of living. Taxes alone mean that above a certain salary, you actually need to make more in Germany. And while the situation is better than in Switzerland, Germany isn't some kind of paradise for parents with young kids. All the people we hired and relocated from overseas had trouble finding Kitas. https://www.thelocal.de/20180524/how-a-childcare-crisis-is-leaving-berlin-parents-stuck-at-home-with-their-kids https://www.thelocal.de/20180524/how-a-childcare-crisis-is-l...
- krn 8y ago
  > Taxes alone mean that above a certain salary, you actually need to make more in Germany. Including taxes, the difference is 160k (Zurich) vs 100k (Berlin) for the same standard of life. I am not claiming that Switzerland is a bad choice, but it's not some kind of paradise, either. Of course, the higher the percentage of income one saves, the better deal working in Switzerland is. Especially, if one later chooses to spend those savings outside of it.
  - hocuspocus 8y ago
    100k gross in Berlin is about 60k net assuming private healthcare insurance. Say you spend 10k a year on rent + utilities, which is very optimistic for someone that would move to Berlin in 2019. 160k gross in Zürich is ~115k after social contributions and taxes. Let's assume 5k for health insurance and 25k on rent a year. You're still 30k CHF ahead in Zürich. I don't see how these salaries are comparable.
    - krn 8y ago
      > You're still 30k CHF ahead in Zürich. I don't see how these salaries are comparable. How? Because everything costs twice as much in Zurich. You can afford a way more with 50k / year in Berlin than with 80k / year in Zurich.
Matthias247 8y ago
Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin? I would guess the relative number for SDEs is less than getting a 350k$ job in Seattle or the bay area. Even if you are a highly skilled IC (e.g. in a principial developer / architect position) most companies won't pay that much. If you are looking for a manager role the chances might be a lot better.
- krn 8y ago
  > Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin? I think just as many that pay 200k CHF in Zurich. > I would guess the relative number for SDEs is less than getting a 350k$ job in Seattle or the bay area. That can definitely be true, because in Europe the size of the salary matters much less than in the US[1]. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/68v4vu/comment/dh1olgn https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/68v4vu/comment/dh1...
  - Matthias247 8y ago
    > That can definitely be true, because in Europe the size of the salary matters much less than in the US[1]. I don't believe in that. Yes, the housing prices might scale with the income. However if I want to buy a car, it's about the same price here and there. Just that my income is lower, and I have to save a lot longer for that. The same is true for all electronics devices, going to vacation, etc.
- romanovcode 8y ago
  > Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin? Unless you are C level you can forget about it.

by krn 8y ago

Varqu 8y ago

Good points. Berlin has definitively a bigger Startup scene and generally more companies to pick from than Zurich. In terms of salary you have to also account for taxes (100k in Germany will be taxed at around 45% and in Switzerland (Zurich) around 30%.

ramblerman 8y ago
I also think Berlin is a city full of culture and brimming with life. As a single male/female, zurich and geneva can get quite dull imo
- Varqu 8y ago
  On the other hand, in Zurich you have a crystal clear lake where you can swim in the summer. Take a 1.5 hour train and you are in the Alps.
  - krn 8y ago
    > in Zurich you have a crystal clear lake where you can swim There are more than 30 lakes in Berlin[1], and more than 100 lakes around it[2]. [1] https://www.visitberlin.de/en/lakes https://www.visitberlin.de/en/lakes [2] https://www.brandenburg-tourism.com/detail/id/17723/theme/a-z.html https://www.brandenburg-tourism.com/detail/id/17723/theme/a-...
austinjp 8y ago
Well yes, but some Swiss taxes are applied at the point of sale e.g. trash bags, which are very expensive. It's not straightforward to compare salaries in these circumstances.
- kmbriedis 8y ago
  2$ for a bag is expensive (in Zurich)?
- j7ake 8y ago
  You can buy a bag a day and it will cost you less than half a percent of your net income.

hocuspocus 8y ago

Unless you're spending all your income, you cannot use Numbeo and other CoL calculators to make comparisons between gross salaries in different countries. I'm Swiss and I worked in Berlin, I guarantee you absolutely don't need to make twice the salary to keep your standard of living. Taxes alone mean that above a certain salary, you actually need to make more in Germany. And while the situation is better than in Switzerland, Germany isn't some kind of paradise for parents with young kids. All the people we hired and relocated from overseas had trouble finding Kitas. https://www.thelocal.de/20180524/how-a-childcare-crisis-is-leaving-berlin-parents-stuck-at-home-with-their-kids https://www.thelocal.de/20180524/how-a-childcare-crisis-is-l...

krn 8y ago
> Taxes alone mean that above a certain salary, you actually need to make more in Germany. Including taxes, the difference is 160k (Zurich) vs 100k (Berlin) for the same standard of life. I am not claiming that Switzerland is a bad choice, but it's not some kind of paradise, either. Of course, the higher the percentage of income one saves, the better deal working in Switzerland is. Especially, if one later chooses to spend those savings outside of it.
- hocuspocus 8y ago
  100k gross in Berlin is about 60k net assuming private healthcare insurance. Say you spend 10k a year on rent + utilities, which is very optimistic for someone that would move to Berlin in 2019. 160k gross in Zürich is ~115k after social contributions and taxes. Let's assume 5k for health insurance and 25k on rent a year. You're still 30k CHF ahead in Zürich. I don't see how these salaries are comparable.
  - krn 8y ago
    > You're still 30k CHF ahead in Zürich. I don't see how these salaries are comparable. How? Because everything costs twice as much in Zurich. You can afford a way more with 50k / year in Berlin than with 80k / year in Zurich.

Matthias247 8y ago

Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin? I would guess the relative number for SDEs is less than getting a 350k$ job in Seattle or the bay area. Even if you are a highly skilled IC (e.g. in a principial developer / architect position) most companies won't pay that much. If you are looking for a manager role the chances might be a lot better.

krn 8y ago
> Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin? I think just as many that pay 200k CHF in Zurich. > I would guess the relative number for SDEs is less than getting a 350k$ job in Seattle or the bay area. That can definitely be true, because in Europe the size of the salary matters much less than in the US[1]. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/68v4vu/comment/dh1olgn https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/68v4vu/comment/dh1...
- Matthias247 8y ago
  > That can definitely be true, because in Europe the size of the salary matters much less than in the US[1]. I don't believe in that. Yes, the housing prices might scale with the income. However if I want to buy a car, it's about the same price here and there. Just that my income is lower, and I have to save a lot longer for that. The same is true for all electronics devices, going to vacation, etc.
romanovcode 8y ago
> Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin? Unless you are C level you can forget about it.