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Chinese Education Startup Puts Western Teachers on Notice

43 points by jkuria 8y ago

Guzba 8y ago
Nice equivocating at the end: “No matter what nation you’re teaching in, there are going to be things that we need to be thoughtful about,” he said. “Even in American classrooms, there are things you cannot discuss.”
- Hydraulix989 8y ago
  I'm not even sure why these things (Taiwan, T. Square, etc.) come up during English classes for kids in the first place? Anyways, as a hired and paid employee of VIPkid, you are required to follow their rules, like it or not. Otherwise, you can leave and teach somewhere else. As a western European-American who has spent time residing in various Asian countries along the China<->anti-China political spectrum as well as both blue and red parts of the US, I really don't see a problem with VIPkid prohibiting discussion of culturally and politically sensitive issues in their classrooms. That's just about respect. If you feel so strongly/morally opposed to China's actions and history, VIPkid is the wrong forum, even if you are seeking to effect change. After all, we already are in the midst of another Cold War.
  - fiblye 8y ago
    Every so often you’ll see people who think non-English-speaking countries are left in the dark and unaware of the realities of the world, and it’s their duty as an enlightened English speaker to show the kids the light. Every year there’s someone who goes on a mission to talk about Tiananmen, Nanjing, Taiwan, and other things. They don’t know that it isn’t that the kids need to be educated about their past by westerners, but that the kids are already exposed to that info but don’t care because they’re kids and just don’t care about things like that. They’re only in English class to memorize a few phrases to help confused tourists or prepare for a future in international work.
    - slaymaker1907 8y ago
      I think it is because even if legally ok, this company only exists due to massive support from US citizens. Therefore, I think the natural expectation is that this company needs to allow for some flexibility due to this not being an exclusively Chinese venture. Additionally, learning a language isn't just memorizing phrases but also understanding the culture and values behind it. If you don't at the very least understand the US/UK perspective on tyranny, it will be nearly impossible to comprehend a lot of 20th century English literature. "Big brother" is a relatively common phrase that I don't think is possible to explain in an entirely Chinese government sanctioned way. I'm not sure how relevant going over these issues specifically is for teaching English, but in my experience Chinese culture is extremely different from English culture and there are almost inevitably going to many conflicts.
      - tiredyam 8y ago
        This is exactly the right answer. Big brother, surveillance state, police state, etc. the list goes on and on. This startup is for us citizens. Students should be taught English in the way it’s spoken in the states; not some China-ok’d version. Taking a step back, the whole idea of a Chinese company teaching English primarily for US citizens is smelly to begin with. Sounds like all future students should stay away.
        deleted 8y ago
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    - dmoy 8y ago
      > They’re only in English class to memorize a few phrases to help confused tourists or prepare for a future in international work. Primary reason is probably entrance examination, no?
  - polotics 8y ago
    you wrote: "culturally and politically sensitive issues - That's just about respect." Respect for democracy in Taiwan? Respect for the innocent victims of the May 35th massacre?
    - Hydraulix989 8y ago
      You're missing the point.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- chillacy 8y ago
  Maybe relevant http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
spamizbad 8y ago
Headline is a bit misleading. I thought this was going to be about disruption but it's actually about a Chinese startup firing western teachers who talk about topics considered "politically-sensitive" in China.
- mc32 8y ago
  I wouldn’t call if misleading, but certainly it’s one of those topics with double meanings. It could be phrased less equivocally, I agree, but at the same time it’s not misleading.
- duxup 8y ago
  I assumed the same, that is a pretty common headline used to mean something else.
- jkuria 8y ago
  You can think of it as headline writing "with Chinese characteristics" :)
mc32 8y ago
I wouldn’t expect any different. People are under the impression that the CCP isn’t the CCP anymore just because they allow government supervised private enterprise via Capitalism eith Chinese Characteristics, as they put it.
- tomrod 8y ago
  Which capitalism and march towards ordered openness is mind-bending to many compared to the way CCP used to operate.
qwerty456127 8y ago
Do real educated people who are not politicians even care about geopolitical issues like that? Everybody knows PRC government theoretically (they don't go there to actually enforce their laws anyway) considers Taiwan a part of PRC. Every educated person in PRC knows they can't just buy a ticket and travel to Taiwan easily. Everybody knows Taiwan is de-facto independent. So why does it even matter to anybody how is it labelled on a map? I also doubt many would know and care about Tiananmen Square if the PRC government wouldn't be making such an epic performance out of the attempts to hide it. It sounds like every single person in China has to know about it to know they should never talk about it. It almost feels like they are intentionally drawing so much attention to it just to hide something else they actually don't speak about and nobody notices.
- stringgames 8y ago
  > It sounds like every single person in China has to know about it to know they should never talk about it. When I was in college I spoke to a Chinese exchange student about Tiananmen square. They had a vague idea that something bad happened there, but they didn't know any details. They had never seen the picture of the person in front of a tank before. They had a belief that lots of bad things happened in China's past, but it's worth it because they are no longer poor. There's a difference between knowing a subject is taboo, and having a real understanding of the subject.
  - qwerty456127 8y ago
    > There's a difference between knowing a subject is taboo, and having a real understanding of the subject. Doesn't tabooing something make it particularly interesting to learn about it? If I know about some mysterious bad thing having happened at a square nobody is allowed to mention I would hardly be able to resist curiosity, I would get interested about this topic above all other and find ways to learn as much as I can.
    - mattnewton 8y ago
      What if you knew that seeking that information would notify the government and could harm you, your family, and possibly even friends? Would you still act on that curiosity?
pbduring 8y ago
"VIP Kid" : the name tells already how stupid this company is.

43 points by jkuria 8y ago

Nice equivocating at the end: “No matter what nation you’re teaching in, there are going to be things that we need to be thoughtful about,” he said. “Even in American classrooms, there are things you cannot discuss.”

Hydraulix989 8y ago
I'm not even sure why these things (Taiwan, T. Square, etc.) come up during English classes for kids in the first place? Anyways, as a hired and paid employee of VIPkid, you are required to follow their rules, like it or not. Otherwise, you can leave and teach somewhere else. As a western European-American who has spent time residing in various Asian countries along the China<->anti-China political spectrum as well as both blue and red parts of the US, I really don't see a problem with VIPkid prohibiting discussion of culturally and politically sensitive issues in their classrooms. That's just about respect. If you feel so strongly/morally opposed to China's actions and history, VIPkid is the wrong forum, even if you are seeking to effect change. After all, we already are in the midst of another Cold War.
- fiblye 8y ago
  Every so often you’ll see people who think non-English-speaking countries are left in the dark and unaware of the realities of the world, and it’s their duty as an enlightened English speaker to show the kids the light. Every year there’s someone who goes on a mission to talk about Tiananmen, Nanjing, Taiwan, and other things. They don’t know that it isn’t that the kids need to be educated about their past by westerners, but that the kids are already exposed to that info but don’t care because they’re kids and just don’t care about things like that. They’re only in English class to memorize a few phrases to help confused tourists or prepare for a future in international work.
  - slaymaker1907 8y ago
    I think it is because even if legally ok, this company only exists due to massive support from US citizens. Therefore, I think the natural expectation is that this company needs to allow for some flexibility due to this not being an exclusively Chinese venture. Additionally, learning a language isn't just memorizing phrases but also understanding the culture and values behind it. If you don't at the very least understand the US/UK perspective on tyranny, it will be nearly impossible to comprehend a lot of 20th century English literature. "Big brother" is a relatively common phrase that I don't think is possible to explain in an entirely Chinese government sanctioned way. I'm not sure how relevant going over these issues specifically is for teaching English, but in my experience Chinese culture is extremely different from English culture and there are almost inevitably going to many conflicts.
    - tiredyam 8y ago
      This is exactly the right answer. Big brother, surveillance state, police state, etc. the list goes on and on. This startup is for us citizens. Students should be taught English in the way it’s spoken in the states; not some China-ok’d version. Taking a step back, the whole idea of a Chinese company teaching English primarily for US citizens is smelly to begin with. Sounds like all future students should stay away.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - dmoy 8y ago
    > They’re only in English class to memorize a few phrases to help confused tourists or prepare for a future in international work. Primary reason is probably entrance examination, no?
- polotics 8y ago
  you wrote: "culturally and politically sensitive issues - That's just about respect." Respect for democracy in Taiwan? Respect for the innocent victims of the May 35th massacre?
  - Hydraulix989 8y ago
    You're missing the point.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
chillacy 8y ago
Maybe relevant http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

spamizbad 8y ago

Headline is a bit misleading. I thought this was going to be about disruption but it's actually about a Chinese startup firing western teachers who talk about topics considered "politically-sensitive" in China.

mc32 8y ago
I wouldn’t call if misleading, but certainly it’s one of those topics with double meanings. It could be phrased less equivocally, I agree, but at the same time it’s not misleading.
duxup 8y ago
I assumed the same, that is a pretty common headline used to mean something else.
jkuria 8y ago
You can think of it as headline writing "with Chinese characteristics" :)

mc32 8y ago

I wouldn’t expect any different. People are under the impression that the CCP isn’t the CCP anymore just because they allow government supervised private enterprise via Capitalism eith Chinese Characteristics, as they put it.

tomrod 8y ago
Which capitalism and march towards ordered openness is mind-bending to many compared to the way CCP used to operate.

qwerty456127 8y ago

Do real educated people who are not politicians even care about geopolitical issues like that? Everybody knows PRC government theoretically (they don't go there to actually enforce their laws anyway) considers Taiwan a part of PRC. Every educated person in PRC knows they can't just buy a ticket and travel to Taiwan easily. Everybody knows Taiwan is de-facto independent. So why does it even matter to anybody how is it labelled on a map? I also doubt many would know and care about Tiananmen Square if the PRC government wouldn't be making such an epic performance out of the attempts to hide it. It sounds like every single person in China has to know about it to know they should never talk about it. It almost feels like they are intentionally drawing so much attention to it just to hide something else they actually don't speak about and nobody notices.

stringgames 8y ago
> It sounds like every single person in China has to know about it to know they should never talk about it. When I was in college I spoke to a Chinese exchange student about Tiananmen square. They had a vague idea that something bad happened there, but they didn't know any details. They had never seen the picture of the person in front of a tank before. They had a belief that lots of bad things happened in China's past, but it's worth it because they are no longer poor. There's a difference between knowing a subject is taboo, and having a real understanding of the subject.
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  > There's a difference between knowing a subject is taboo, and having a real understanding of the subject. Doesn't tabooing something make it particularly interesting to learn about it? If I know about some mysterious bad thing having happened at a square nobody is allowed to mention I would hardly be able to resist curiosity, I would get interested about this topic above all other and find ways to learn as much as I can.
  - mattnewton 8y ago
    What if you knew that seeking that information would notify the government and could harm you, your family, and possibly even friends? Would you still act on that curiosity?

pbduring 8y ago

"VIP Kid" : the name tells already how stupid this company is.