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Dear British Government: You've Screwed Up (Startup) Visas Badly

48 points by ig1 16y ago

sciboy 16y ago
Is there any data that supports this blog posts contention that the best developers are in the UK on tier 1 visa's? If this were true, surely a large portion of the successful uk startups should be founded by tier-1 recipients?
- muriithi 16y ago
  His "data" is purely anecdotal since his sample is limited to those developers he has worked with. However it is possible that you can have many good immigrant developers and a disproportionately lower number who go ahead and found startups. Not every developer wants to be a startup founder.
- iloveponies 16y ago
  Application for Tier 1 visas require higher education - masters are preferred, BA is a minimum. Tier 2 doesn't require this, only proof of industry experience.
- anarchitect 16y ago
  I think both tier 2 and 2 require sponsorship by an employer which would preclude setting up a new business. I'm going through a tier 2 application at the moment and it is hell under the new UK government.
- hugothefrog 16y ago
  I'm a developer working in London - I've been here for the last five years. Immigrants seem disproportionately represented in the software dev industry (but not IT in general). Quite a few from the EU, but a lot from Commonwealth countries (NZ, Aus, SA). I've always found the mix very strange.
naithemilkman 16y ago
The problem is systemic. 1. Startups can't recruit overseas students or highly skilled workers anymore without applying for a tier 2 sponsorship license. Talking about lead time of 1 1/2 months and jumping through admin hoops for approval. 2. Local students are starting school with a bigger debt due to increases in tuition fees. Now if I was a young talented programmer with a big debt (average debt of a student now is around £18K. I estimate this to increase to about £24K), the glowing lights of the city looks very attractive.
- ashconnor 16y ago
  >average debt of a student now is around £18K. I estimate this to increase to about £24K) Fees are trebeling to £9000 a year add in maitenance loan costs and you're looking nearer to £50k. How do you calculate that the average debt will only increase to £24k.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Is it really so bad? 18k is a lot of money, but it isn't that large a run for a good university graduate, and it is very little compared to what US graduates can expect to pay; yet they start plenty of companies. Might the reason not be that the difference lies with the people and not the environment?
  - _grrr 16y ago
    Student fees should not put someone off starting a start-up in the UK because you don't have to pay anything back until you're earning > £21k, so a founder wouldn't have to pay anything until the business could afford to pay them. However, there are other reasons that deter people from launching start-ups in the UK, 1) it's expensive - London is very expensive, general living costs are higher than the US 2) The City is a disproportionately large draw for UK graduates, finance is a larger percent of the economy, compared to say the US.
  - cabalamat 16y ago
    > Might the reason not be that the difference lies with the people and not the environment? There probably is an element of that; British people tend to be less entrepreneurial than Americans.
rwmj 16y ago
Why don't people just work remotely? I've been involved in employing 3 people for Red Hat in the last few months. All are remote, I've not met any of them and I don't intend to meet them in the near future.
- iloveponies 16y ago
  It isn't just about the job, it's the location. I moved to the other side of the world to be outside of my home country, and to be closer to my partner.
gargs 16y ago
Seems like what the US government is trying to do with the whole H1/L1 visas. Companies like to have immobile employees that they know would not go back to their home country. At the same time, it plays well with the whole immigration debate because no one complains about it, what with the lobbying efforts keeping it down to a murmur. The startup visa scheme is another such proposition, but at a grander level. Banks want entrepreneurs that won't give up on a bad idea, but would instead keep toiling away rather than have to move their entire family back to their home country. No one wants to speak from the perspective of an employee because, frankly, the biggest proponents have never been ideal employees. What kind of a talented engineer would want to put themselves into a situation where they lose their freedom to switch careers or engage in a personal idea? So sure, there is a shortage of talent, but not because of a lack of immigrants.
- to 16y ago
  thats how it is... what bugs me the most on my h1b visa is that the time youre in the country you cant build a life for yourself. first its 3 years, than you can extend another three years but after those six years they kick you out. of course after five years you can apply for a green card but that takes two years. not to speak of the cut down on time when you switch jobs. i recently changed my employer after two years. now my last year of the first part of the visa got cut out and directly extended. giving me together five years in the country. now what do i do in three years? in sept 2013 my visa ends. no extension. how can you live like that? knowing you leave your life, friends, everything behind in three years. and the whole new investor start up blah visa is a punch in my face. when you generate a milliondollar revenue or find an investor that invests a million or more you get citizenship. come again? citizenship? i lead start ups for my last employer which gave me an astronomical salary around 300-600k a year and the start ups generated under the companies umbrella way more than 20m this year. where the FUCK is my citizenship? the whole topic just makes me angry.
pc 16y ago
Somewhat unrelated, but I was struck by a line in The Economist's article about the visas in this week's issue: "The spontaneous rise of Silicon Roundabout might have persuaded the government to leave well alone. Instead, David Cameron recently unveiled a plan to support it. As well as tinkering with the legal framework in which such businesses operate—by creating updated “entrepreneur visas” to bypass ill-judged new immigration restrictions, for example—the government has persuaded technology titans such as Google and Cisco to invest. Soon BT will bring super-fast broadband to the area; McKinsey, a consultancy, will share management expertise."[1] "McKinsey, a consultancy, will share management expertise"—well then. I don't know how the tech start-ups will contain their jubilation. [1] http://www.economist.com/node/17581635 http://www.economist.com/node/17581635
- viraptor 16y ago
  > The spontaneous rise of Silicon Roundabout Was it? I was under the impression that the whole idea was pushed by the government and officially planned from the start...
- kmfrk 16y ago
  This was discussed on HN earlier, I think. As one commenter remarked: "God help them."
sudhirc 16y ago
UK government does not want people coming in on Tier 1 and compete in open market; however they do not have any problems issuing Tier 2 which is intra company transfer.Only criteria is that income of employee should not be less than £40K/year. Do they want salaries to stabilize at £40K?
- ig1 16y ago
  FYI. The Tier-2 category covers a range of "company sponsored" skilled visas, not just intra-company transfers. Source:http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/tier2/ http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/tier2/
codeglomeration 16y ago
That was my main reason for not picking UK when deciding to work abroad, even though that was my first preference because of the English language. Eventually I ended up moving to the Netherlands, because of their more liberal policies. Your visa being tied to an employer can pretty easily turn into exploitation, if you end up picking the wrong employer. But seriously, even worse is the appearance of how you're being treated. Why would I want to live there under those conditions? This measure can't really attract talent. I don't see what good developers - in their right mind - would accept those terms. There are other better options.
WildUtah 16y ago
>>>The Tier-1 visa didn't surpress salaries And you wonder why a Conservative government would want to eliminate them? The fact explains itself. Do these apply only to foreigners from outside Europe? I read that EU member nationals can form a startup in any EU country.
petercooper 16y ago
A related issue - and one reason this policy has gone through without much complaint - is the growing negativity and dislike of immigrants by the majority of the UK public. Think I'm joking? YouGov found 55% agreed with the statement "migrants have changed UK for the worse": http://yfrog.com/mk3fqfj http://yfrog.com/mk3fqfj (and only 28% disagreeing) Protectionism, my arse. These policies are fueled by xenophobia, the like of which even respectable Brits frequently agree, even if they say nothing about it in public (I've had these rows with people in my own family and social groups who I'd never had believed could be so xenophobic).
- notahacker 16y ago
  Agree. Other immigration restrictions likely to be implemented make no economic sense at all, like capping numbers of overseas students, whose higher fees subsidise our allegedly underfunded higher education system. It was evident throughout the election campaign that being "tough" on immigration was perceived as more important than being "fair".

48 points by ig1 16y ago

Is there any data that supports this blog posts contention that the best developers are in the UK on tier 1 visa's? If this were true, surely a large portion of the successful uk startups should be founded by tier-1 recipients?

muriithi 16y ago
His "data" is purely anecdotal since his sample is limited to those developers he has worked with. However it is possible that you can have many good immigrant developers and a disproportionately lower number who go ahead and found startups. Not every developer wants to be a startup founder.
iloveponies 16y ago
Application for Tier 1 visas require higher education - masters are preferred, BA is a minimum. Tier 2 doesn't require this, only proof of industry experience.
anarchitect 16y ago
I think both tier 2 and 2 require sponsorship by an employer which would preclude setting up a new business. I'm going through a tier 2 application at the moment and it is hell under the new UK government.
hugothefrog 16y ago
I'm a developer working in London - I've been here for the last five years. Immigrants seem disproportionately represented in the software dev industry (but not IT in general). Quite a few from the EU, but a lot from Commonwealth countries (NZ, Aus, SA). I've always found the mix very strange.

naithemilkman 16y ago

The problem is systemic. 1. Startups can't recruit overseas students or highly skilled workers anymore without applying for a tier 2 sponsorship license. Talking about lead time of 1 1/2 months and jumping through admin hoops for approval. 2. Local students are starting school with a bigger debt due to increases in tuition fees. Now if I was a young talented programmer with a big debt (average debt of a student now is around £18K. I estimate this to increase to about £24K), the glowing lights of the city looks very attractive.

ashconnor 16y ago
>average debt of a student now is around £18K. I estimate this to increase to about £24K) Fees are trebeling to £9000 a year add in maitenance loan costs and you're looking nearer to £50k. How do you calculate that the average debt will only increase to £24k.
tomjen3 16y ago
Is it really so bad? 18k is a lot of money, but it isn't that large a run for a good university graduate, and it is very little compared to what US graduates can expect to pay; yet they start plenty of companies. Might the reason not be that the difference lies with the people and not the environment?
- _grrr 16y ago
  Student fees should not put someone off starting a start-up in the UK because you don't have to pay anything back until you're earning > £21k, so a founder wouldn't have to pay anything until the business could afford to pay them. However, there are other reasons that deter people from launching start-ups in the UK, 1) it's expensive - London is very expensive, general living costs are higher than the US 2) The City is a disproportionately large draw for UK graduates, finance is a larger percent of the economy, compared to say the US.
- cabalamat 16y ago
  > Might the reason not be that the difference lies with the people and not the environment? There probably is an element of that; British people tend to be less entrepreneurial than Americans.

rwmj 16y ago

Why don't people just work remotely? I've been involved in employing 3 people for Red Hat in the last few months. All are remote, I've not met any of them and I don't intend to meet them in the near future.

iloveponies 16y ago
It isn't just about the job, it's the location. I moved to the other side of the world to be outside of my home country, and to be closer to my partner.

gargs 16y ago

Seems like what the US government is trying to do with the whole H1/L1 visas. Companies like to have immobile employees that they know would not go back to their home country. At the same time, it plays well with the whole immigration debate because no one complains about it, what with the lobbying efforts keeping it down to a murmur. The startup visa scheme is another such proposition, but at a grander level. Banks want entrepreneurs that won't give up on a bad idea, but would instead keep toiling away rather than have to move their entire family back to their home country. No one wants to speak from the perspective of an employee because, frankly, the biggest proponents have never been ideal employees. What kind of a talented engineer would want to put themselves into a situation where they lose their freedom to switch careers or engage in a personal idea? So sure, there is a shortage of talent, but not because of a lack of immigrants.

to 16y ago
thats how it is... what bugs me the most on my h1b visa is that the time youre in the country you cant build a life for yourself. first its 3 years, than you can extend another three years but after those six years they kick you out. of course after five years you can apply for a green card but that takes two years. not to speak of the cut down on time when you switch jobs. i recently changed my employer after two years. now my last year of the first part of the visa got cut out and directly extended. giving me together five years in the country. now what do i do in three years? in sept 2013 my visa ends. no extension. how can you live like that? knowing you leave your life, friends, everything behind in three years. and the whole new investor start up blah visa is a punch in my face. when you generate a milliondollar revenue or find an investor that invests a million or more you get citizenship. come again? citizenship? i lead start ups for my last employer which gave me an astronomical salary around 300-600k a year and the start ups generated under the companies umbrella way more than 20m this year. where the FUCK is my citizenship? the whole topic just makes me angry.

pc 16y ago

Somewhat unrelated, but I was struck by a line in The Economist's article about the visas in this week's issue: "The spontaneous rise of Silicon Roundabout might have persuaded the government to leave well alone. Instead, David Cameron recently unveiled a plan to support it. As well as tinkering with the legal framework in which such businesses operate—by creating updated “entrepreneur visas” to bypass ill-judged new immigration restrictions, for example—the government has persuaded technology titans such as Google and Cisco to invest. Soon BT will bring super-fast broadband to the area; McKinsey, a consultancy, will share management expertise."[1] "McKinsey, a consultancy, will share management expertise"—well then. I don't know how the tech start-ups will contain their jubilation. [1] http://www.economist.com/node/17581635 http://www.economist.com/node/17581635

viraptor 16y ago
> The spontaneous rise of Silicon Roundabout Was it? I was under the impression that the whole idea was pushed by the government and officially planned from the start...
kmfrk 16y ago
This was discussed on HN earlier, I think. As one commenter remarked: "God help them."

sudhirc 16y ago

UK government does not want people coming in on Tier 1 and compete in open market; however they do not have any problems issuing Tier 2 which is intra company transfer.Only criteria is that income of employee should not be less than £40K/year. Do they want salaries to stabilize at £40K?

ig1 16y ago
FYI. The Tier-2 category covers a range of "company sponsored" skilled visas, not just intra-company transfers. Source:http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/tier2/ http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/tier2/

codeglomeration 16y ago

That was my main reason for not picking UK when deciding to work abroad, even though that was my first preference because of the English language. Eventually I ended up moving to the Netherlands, because of their more liberal policies. Your visa being tied to an employer can pretty easily turn into exploitation, if you end up picking the wrong employer. But seriously, even worse is the appearance of how you're being treated. Why would I want to live there under those conditions? This measure can't really attract talent. I don't see what good developers - in their right mind - would accept those terms. There are other better options.

WildUtah 16y ago

>>>The Tier-1 visa didn't surpress salaries And you wonder why a Conservative government would want to eliminate them? The fact explains itself. Do these apply only to foreigners from outside Europe? I read that EU member nationals can form a startup in any EU country.

petercooper 16y ago

A related issue - and one reason this policy has gone through without much complaint - is the growing negativity and dislike of immigrants by the majority of the UK public. Think I'm joking? YouGov found 55% agreed with the statement "migrants have changed UK for the worse": http://yfrog.com/mk3fqfj http://yfrog.com/mk3fqfj (and only 28% disagreeing) Protectionism, my arse. These policies are fueled by xenophobia, the like of which even respectable Brits frequently agree, even if they say nothing about it in public (I've had these rows with people in my own family and social groups who I'd never had believed could be so xenophobic).

notahacker 16y ago
Agree. Other immigration restrictions likely to be implemented make no economic sense at all, like capping numbers of overseas students, whose higher fees subsidise our allegedly underfunded higher education system. It was evident throughout the election campaign that being "tough" on immigration was perceived as more important than being "fair".