7 ms·

This seems to be getting worse and worse for Boeing, and they definitely aren't acting like they understand the gravity of the situation. I guess Boeing has bee

This seems to be getting worse and worse for Boeing, and they definitely aren't acting like they understand the gravity of the situation. I guess Boeing has been coasting along based on its position and reputation for a few decades and this is the result.

dudus 8y ago
They understand, they are just downplaying.
ackfoo 8y ago
That's not really accurate. Boeing is under continuous attack by hatchet jobs like this that insinuate they cut corners and are solely responsible for these accidents. First, we don't have final reports from the investigators yet, so it's awfully early to point the finger. Second, every major aviation accident is multi-factorial. It's never just one failure that causes it. If it does turn out to be the faulty AOA indicator causing the electric trim to go nose-down, there are still a number of other obvious contributing factors in addition to the faulty sensor. The public is demanding low airfare prices because they are getting squeezed by the increasing disparity of wealth worldwide. Wages are not rising as fast as prices, and as the cost of doing business with China slowly rises due to the trade war, prices start to creep up and the squeeze increases. Airlines respond by flying pilots with lower time and lesser training, paying them less, and working them harder. Pilots spend less time in the simulator working on abnormal conditions, and while they are undoubtedly great at monitoring normal flights and navigating controlled airspace, they have less experience hand-flying approaches and dealing with rare equipment failures and emergencies. Every pilot should have adequate simulator time to be competent with every emergency procedure for which there is a checklist, but that is not the reality. The three seconds allotted by the FAA to diagnose critical systems failures is simply not enough if you can't find and execute the correct checklist in that time period. In the old days, every single pilot from a Cessna 152 on up knew exactly what a badly trimmed airplane felt like and how to fix it instantly. When you felt that extra force on the controls, you would instinctively rotate the trim wheel in the direction of the force that you were needing to apply. Same for electric trim systems: if the force doesn't ease the way it should, you have a runaway and you need to interrupt power to the electric trim system. But that is hand-flying, stick-and-rudder-type stuff. If you're not getting the hand-flying time and the simulated failure time, you just don't develop that instinct. It's not entirely Boeing's fault that an aircrew can't recognize and counter a runaway electric trim, no matter what the details in the flight manual. It's only reasonable to assume that basic level of competency.
- sgwae 8y ago
  Has the same issue happened for airbus with half a thousand dead, and any of their planes grounded world wide?
  - selectodude 8y ago
    The A330 had some weird pitch down incidences due to a faulty ADIRS, and obviously AF447 due to faulty pitot tubes and the completely idiotic issue where the control sticks aren't synced and the inputs are averaged out before being sent to the plane. There were some considerations given to grounding the fleet, whether or not Airbus wanted to admit it at the time. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-plane-denial-sb/airbus-denies-planning-to-ground-a330-340-fleet-idUSTRE5597AC20090610 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-plane-denial-sb/ai...
    - cjbprime 8y ago
      A330 has fewer total fatalities over its 27 years of service (339 deaths) than the MAX does in a year and a half (346 deaths).
    - raverbashing 8y ago
      The pitch down incidents I believe were caused by a non compliant part replacement (I don't remember which company it was though)
  - sidlls 8y ago
    There are several pilots who've had this very issue happen to them and they managed to diagnose and address the problem without flying the plane into the ground. These incidents are almost always the result of a combination of errors ranging from negligent engineering and documentation to mechanical defects to human (pilot) error. We simply don't know all the facts in these two crashes. The publicly available information to me indicates negligent documentation (pilot manuals should have been updated to reflect the new mode and how to treat the issue similarly to runaway trim), negligent sales practice (the AoA disagree feature shouldn't be an option), and poor reactions by the pilots involved. But that's purely speculation at this point: there could very well be some other causes instead of or in addition to these.

dudus 8y ago

They understand, they are just downplaying.

ackfoo 8y ago

That's not really accurate. Boeing is under continuous attack by hatchet jobs like this that insinuate they cut corners and are solely responsible for these accidents. First, we don't have final reports from the investigators yet, so it's awfully early to point the finger. Second, every major aviation accident is multi-factorial. It's never just one failure that causes it. If it does turn out to be the faulty AOA indicator causing the electric trim to go nose-down, there are still a number of other obvious contributing factors in addition to the faulty sensor. The public is demanding low airfare prices because they are getting squeezed by the increasing disparity of wealth worldwide. Wages are not rising as fast as prices, and as the cost of doing business with China slowly rises due to the trade war, prices start to creep up and the squeeze increases. Airlines respond by flying pilots with lower time and lesser training, paying them less, and working them harder. Pilots spend less time in the simulator working on abnormal conditions, and while they are undoubtedly great at monitoring normal flights and navigating controlled airspace, they have less experience hand-flying approaches and dealing with rare equipment failures and emergencies. Every pilot should have adequate simulator time to be competent with every emergency procedure for which there is a checklist, but that is not the reality. The three seconds allotted by the FAA to diagnose critical systems failures is simply not enough if you can't find and execute the correct checklist in that time period. In the old days, every single pilot from a Cessna 152 on up knew exactly what a badly trimmed airplane felt like and how to fix it instantly. When you felt that extra force on the controls, you would instinctively rotate the trim wheel in the direction of the force that you were needing to apply. Same for electric trim systems: if the force doesn't ease the way it should, you have a runaway and you need to interrupt power to the electric trim system. But that is hand-flying, stick-and-rudder-type stuff. If you're not getting the hand-flying time and the simulated failure time, you just don't develop that instinct. It's not entirely Boeing's fault that an aircrew can't recognize and counter a runaway electric trim, no matter what the details in the flight manual. It's only reasonable to assume that basic level of competency.

sgwae 8y ago
Has the same issue happened for airbus with half a thousand dead, and any of their planes grounded world wide?
- selectodude 8y ago
  The A330 had some weird pitch down incidences due to a faulty ADIRS, and obviously AF447 due to faulty pitot tubes and the completely idiotic issue where the control sticks aren't synced and the inputs are averaged out before being sent to the plane. There were some considerations given to grounding the fleet, whether or not Airbus wanted to admit it at the time. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-plane-denial-sb/airbus-denies-planning-to-ground-a330-340-fleet-idUSTRE5597AC20090610 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-plane-denial-sb/ai...
  - cjbprime 8y ago
    A330 has fewer total fatalities over its 27 years of service (339 deaths) than the MAX does in a year and a half (346 deaths).
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    The pitch down incidents I believe were caused by a non compliant part replacement (I don't remember which company it was though)
- sidlls 8y ago
  There are several pilots who've had this very issue happen to them and they managed to diagnose and address the problem without flying the plane into the ground. These incidents are almost always the result of a combination of errors ranging from negligent engineering and documentation to mechanical defects to human (pilot) error. We simply don't know all the facts in these two crashes. The publicly available information to me indicates negligent documentation (pilot manuals should have been updated to reflect the new mode and how to treat the issue similarly to runaway trim), negligent sales practice (the AoA disagree feature shouldn't be an option), and poor reactions by the pilots involved. But that's purely speculation at this point: there could very well be some other causes instead of or in addition to these.