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There is some information that usually won't show up in BBC but discussed in other places which might worth some attention for HNers: Some part of the cooperat

by jjcc 8y ago

There is some information that usually won't show up in BBC but discussed in other places which might worth some attention for HNers: Some part of the cooperation is on development of Africa which probabley is part of China's current plan or even part of OBOR. We know that Italy is major victim of the wave of iligle immigrants accross the ocean. An inductrialized and stable Africa is also in the interest of Italy. That could explain why Italy is more interested in OBOR than other Eurapian countries. Does that make sense?

oh_sigh 8y ago
Why aren't migrants shipped around proportionately to the various EU countries?
- MagnumOpus 8y ago
  Because (a) borders in Schengen are open so migrants who get shipped can move somewhere else without issue and (b) many EU countries have xenophobic governments at the helm which would prevent such a solution (just like they prevent being a migrant destination by treating them as inhumanly as possible).
  - caprese 8y ago
    Yeah would like to add that asylum applicants are given very limited work privileges limited to a specific area within a country, where the countries try to distribute the load quite a bit. But it's also easy to just keep walking to the country you want to be in since all the border controls are gone once you reach schengen area. Few easily avoidable exceptions. Further compounded by all these countries retaining their own asylum protocols, so even if a country is landlocked or access is limited by some other geographical feature, if you are able to show up then you are able to request asylum.
  - kanjus 8y ago
    Your (a) is untrue. For one, borders are difficult for migrants to cross: trains and coaches near borders are often checked for migrants, some borders are under police surveillance (like between France/Italy), etc. Second, Dublin agreements force migrants to apply for asylum in the first EU country that they give their fingerprints in (ie the one where they have their first encounter with police). Most migrants have fingerprints in Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Spain, ie the countries on the outskirts of Europe. So migrants can’t just walk to the country of their choice and claim asylum, as they will be “deported”, as a rule, to a country they explicitly don’t want to be in (Italy had high acceptance rates until recently but can offer no work, Hungary is known for extreme racism and violence against migrants, etc.) Your (b) is on point though. Italy has been asking for a fairer distribution of migrants among the Member States for some time, but the most powerful Member States like their South/Eastern European moat a lot
walterstucco 8y ago
Not really. I'm Italian and, apart from political propaganda, Italy is not victim of immigration, the population balance has been negative since the 90s. The Italian population has been constantly decreasing, even if we count in immigrants the net balance is still negative (almost -100 thousands people last year). The effect is amplified by our own emigration: Italians have been leaving Italy at a rate of almost 200 thousands/year for the past 10 years. In the end African development is desiderabile for Italy because it could mean more specialised work in an area very close to our borders (Italy is know for food, but we are very good at engineering), just like the old times when we built much of the Libyan infrastructures.
westiseast 8y ago
I’m not sure that passes a basic sniff test. It’s much more likely after decades of poor economic management and a weak economy, Italy is willing to sacrifice some principles/accept some risk in return for Chinese investment in ports and businesses. China has invested heavily in Greece as well for the same reasons.

by jjcc 8y ago

oh_sigh 8y ago

Why aren't migrants shipped around proportionately to the various EU countries?

MagnumOpus 8y ago
Because (a) borders in Schengen are open so migrants who get shipped can move somewhere else without issue and (b) many EU countries have xenophobic governments at the helm which would prevent such a solution (just like they prevent being a migrant destination by treating them as inhumanly as possible).
- caprese 8y ago
  Yeah would like to add that asylum applicants are given very limited work privileges limited to a specific area within a country, where the countries try to distribute the load quite a bit. But it's also easy to just keep walking to the country you want to be in since all the border controls are gone once you reach schengen area. Few easily avoidable exceptions. Further compounded by all these countries retaining their own asylum protocols, so even if a country is landlocked or access is limited by some other geographical feature, if you are able to show up then you are able to request asylum.
- kanjus 8y ago
  Your (a) is untrue. For one, borders are difficult for migrants to cross: trains and coaches near borders are often checked for migrants, some borders are under police surveillance (like between France/Italy), etc. Second, Dublin agreements force migrants to apply for asylum in the first EU country that they give their fingerprints in (ie the one where they have their first encounter with police). Most migrants have fingerprints in Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Spain, ie the countries on the outskirts of Europe. So migrants can’t just walk to the country of their choice and claim asylum, as they will be “deported”, as a rule, to a country they explicitly don’t want to be in (Italy had high acceptance rates until recently but can offer no work, Hungary is known for extreme racism and violence against migrants, etc.) Your (b) is on point though. Italy has been asking for a fairer distribution of migrants among the Member States for some time, but the most powerful Member States like their South/Eastern European moat a lot

walterstucco 8y ago

Not really. I'm Italian and, apart from political propaganda, Italy is not victim of immigration, the population balance has been negative since the 90s. The Italian population has been constantly decreasing, even if we count in immigrants the net balance is still negative (almost -100 thousands people last year). The effect is amplified by our own emigration: Italians have been leaving Italy at a rate of almost 200 thousands/year for the past 10 years. In the end African development is desiderabile for Italy because it could mean more specialised work in an area very close to our borders (Italy is know for food, but we are very good at engineering), just like the old times when we built much of the Libyan infrastructures.

westiseast 8y ago

I’m not sure that passes a basic sniff test. It’s much more likely after decades of poor economic management and a weak economy, Italy is willing to sacrifice some principles/accept some risk in return for Chinese investment in ports and businesses. China has invested heavily in Greece as well for the same reasons.