Because of the aging of the population and the consolidation of wealth the natural interest rate have fallen quite a bit. And you're right I think that's a big

Because of the aging of the population and the consolidation of wealth the natural interest rate have fallen quite a bit. And you're right I think that's a big risk for the next recession. But the only way to a higher nominal interest rate while keeping the same real rate is too raise the inflation rate to 3 or 4%.