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> No, they state it in the fineprint so to speak. Self-Driving is not even released yet, prove me wrong otherwise. What you're attempting to quote are forward

by xedeon 8y ago

> No, they state it in the fineprint so to speak. Self-Driving is not even released yet, prove me wrong otherwise. What you're attempting to quote are forward looking statements. Maybe you need to read the document you linked, slowly this time.

close04 8y ago
I don't have to prove anything, I know they're not flat out lying [0], they're just misleading. Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. And Tesla doesn't do much to make this distinction clear. [0] Except for the "we'll have it next year" bit. That's just to get a little more cashflow, pretty sure not even Musk expects to have FSD ready "next year" unless it's a perpetual "next year".
- xedeon 8y ago
  > I don’t have to prove anything You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up... Makes you look imprudent. > Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. Everytime you engage Autosteer. You get a warning that says “Always keep your hands on the steering wheel” and “Be prepared to take over at any time”. More importantly, each driver assistance update also explicitly state the capabilities and you HAVE to toggle them on. No where in the car UX or manual even suggests that it can “drive itself”. I think it’s you have the wrong impression. Unless you’re speaking anecdotally, which is I highly doubt.
  - close04 8y ago
    > You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up That's not how the burden of proof works. Tesla is claiming the following: > All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. > The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. Where is the proof of that? The suggestion is that everything is in place short of regulatory approval. And it's always "next year". The result is this [0]. People genuinely believing and insisting that car can drive itself. The result is the only driver fatalities while autonomously driving were in a Tesla. Do you see how people interpret this as "well it's there but you know, pesky regulators want to delay it by testing and stuff". If the vast swaths of internet commenters and drivers that can no longer provide an opinion is not proof enough that the statements are misleading I don't know what is [0] (again). You may see through them but it doesn't make them less misleading. That whole page is designed to give an inflated impression of the state and capabilities of the system regardless of consequences. Other manufacturers have at least equally capable hardware and software but none make these claims, because they are misleading and will cause deaths. What would you think if someone sold you a mobile phone claiming it's able to crack any encryption no matter how strong? Of course it might take longer than the lifetime of the universe but hey, it is possible. Not lying, just misleading. So wanna buy a phone? [0] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+self+driving https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+self+driv...
    - natch 8y ago
      It’s hard to discuss these things when both sides don’t have all the facts. Just as a basic background for what happens, please try this: sit in a recent Tesla, engage autopilot, and read what it says on the screen. Also try ignoring the advice the screen gives you (pretend you didn’t read the “fine” print as you call it, and see what happens when you try to let the car drive with no input.) Do this, then we can talk about this stuff, OK?
      - close04 8y ago
        Unless the dashboard tells me why the Tesla website and marketing (not to mention its CEO) make all the false/misleading claims I don’t think we need to talk about anything else.
        xedeon 8y ago
        > Unless the dashboard tells me why the Tesla website and marketing (not to mention its CEO) make all the false/misleading claims I don’t think we need to talk about anything else. Honest question. Do you have a short position on the stock?
        natch 8y ago
        Maybe just a few bricks short of a load. All their points have been refuted but they still don’t get it.
        close04 8y ago
        Were they? As I said (I'll say again it but slower) Tesla is the only manufacturer with multiple driver fatalities while "self driving". Plus the countless crashes with no fatalities. Either the description of the Autopilot's capabilities is misleading making drivers assume it's more capable, or drivers with severe comprehension issues are over represented among Tesla drivers, to the point where they actually kill themselves. The car or the driver have a problem. You pick.

by xedeon 8y ago

close04 8y ago

I don't have to prove anything, I know they're not flat out lying [0], they're just misleading. Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. And Tesla doesn't do much to make this distinction clear. [0] Except for the "we'll have it next year" bit. That's just to get a little more cashflow, pretty sure not even Musk expects to have FSD ready "next year" unless it's a perpetual "next year".

xedeon 8y ago
> I don’t have to prove anything You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up... Makes you look imprudent. > Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. Everytime you engage Autosteer. You get a warning that says “Always keep your hands on the steering wheel” and “Be prepared to take over at any time”. More importantly, each driver assistance update also explicitly state the capabilities and you HAVE to toggle them on. No where in the car UX or manual even suggests that it can “drive itself”. I think it’s you have the wrong impression. Unless you’re speaking anecdotally, which is I highly doubt.
- close04 8y ago
  > You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up That's not how the burden of proof works. Tesla is claiming the following: > All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. > The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. Where is the proof of that? The suggestion is that everything is in place short of regulatory approval. And it's always "next year". The result is this [0]. People genuinely believing and insisting that car can drive itself. The result is the only driver fatalities while autonomously driving were in a Tesla. Do you see how people interpret this as "well it's there but you know, pesky regulators want to delay it by testing and stuff". If the vast swaths of internet commenters and drivers that can no longer provide an opinion is not proof enough that the statements are misleading I don't know what is [0] (again). You may see through them but it doesn't make them less misleading. That whole page is designed to give an inflated impression of the state and capabilities of the system regardless of consequences. Other manufacturers have at least equally capable hardware and software but none make these claims, because they are misleading and will cause deaths. What would you think if someone sold you a mobile phone claiming it's able to crack any encryption no matter how strong? Of course it might take longer than the lifetime of the universe but hey, it is possible. Not lying, just misleading. So wanna buy a phone? [0] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+self+driving https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+self+driv...
  - natch 8y ago
    It’s hard to discuss these things when both sides don’t have all the facts. Just as a basic background for what happens, please try this: sit in a recent Tesla, engage autopilot, and read what it says on the screen. Also try ignoring the advice the screen gives you (pretend you didn’t read the “fine” print as you call it, and see what happens when you try to let the car drive with no input.) Do this, then we can talk about this stuff, OK?
    - close04 8y ago
      Unless the dashboard tells me why the Tesla website and marketing (not to mention its CEO) make all the false/misleading claims I don’t think we need to talk about anything else.
      - xedeon 8y ago
        > Unless the dashboard tells me why the Tesla website and marketing (not to mention its CEO) make all the false/misleading claims I don’t think we need to talk about anything else. Honest question. Do you have a short position on the stock?
        natch 8y ago
        Maybe just a few bricks short of a load. All their points have been refuted but they still don’t get it.
        close04 8y ago
        Were they? As I said (I'll say again it but slower) Tesla is the only manufacturer with multiple driver fatalities while "self driving". Plus the countless crashes with no fatalities. Either the description of the Autopilot's capabilities is misleading making drivers assume it's more capable, or drivers with severe comprehension issues are over represented among Tesla drivers, to the point where they actually kill themselves. The car or the driver have a problem. You pick.