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> They state very clearly They state it in the fineprint. This is what the Tesla Autopilot page used to say for years (this is a 1+ year old screenshot) [0]. W

> They state very clearly They state it in the fineprint. This is what the Tesla Autopilot page used to say for years (this is a 1+ year old screenshot) [0]. Which part of that is accurate? How clear are they about the limitations and the real capabilities of the system? Tesla took the narrow areas where those systems can do a reasonably good job and extrapolated to the whole self-driving experience, blaming regulations for the bits that aren't really there. No autonomous system in the world at this time is capable of anything close to what a human is. They still claim that: > Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed Which is patently false. [0] https://imgur.com/a/bsgxCCn https://imgur.com/a/bsgxCCn

xedeon 8y ago
> No, they state it in the fineprint so to speak. Self-Driving is not even released yet, prove me wrong otherwise. What you're attempting to quote are forward looking statements. Maybe you need to read the document you linked, slowly this time.
- close04 8y ago
  I don't have to prove anything, I know they're not flat out lying [0], they're just misleading. Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. And Tesla doesn't do much to make this distinction clear. [0] Except for the "we'll have it next year" bit. That's just to get a little more cashflow, pretty sure not even Musk expects to have FSD ready "next year" unless it's a perpetual "next year".
  - xedeon 8y ago
    > I don’t have to prove anything You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up... Makes you look imprudent. > Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. Everytime you engage Autosteer. You get a warning that says “Always keep your hands on the steering wheel” and “Be prepared to take over at any time”. More importantly, each driver assistance update also explicitly state the capabilities and you HAVE to toggle them on. No where in the car UX or manual even suggests that it can “drive itself”. I think it’s you have the wrong impression. Unless you’re speaking anecdotally, which is I highly doubt.
    - close04 8y ago
      > You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up That's not how the burden of proof works. Tesla is claiming the following: > All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. > The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. Where is the proof of that? The suggestion is that everything is in place short of regulatory approval. And it's always "next year". The result is this [0]. People genuinely believing and insisting that car can drive itself. The result is the only driver fatalities while autonomously driving were in a Tesla. Do you see how people interpret this as "well it's there but you know, pesky regulators want to delay it by testing and stuff". If the vast swaths of internet commenters and drivers that can no longer provide an opinion is not proof enough that the statements are misleading I don't know what is [0] (again). You may see through them but it doesn't make them less misleading. That whole page is designed to give an inflated impression of the state and capabilities of the system regardless of consequences. Other manufacturers have at least equally capable hardware and software but none make these claims, because they are misleading and will cause deaths. What would you think if someone sold you a mobile phone claiming it's able to crack any encryption no matter how strong? Of course it might take longer than the lifetime of the universe but hey, it is possible. Not lying, just misleading. So wanna buy a phone? [0] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+self+driving https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+self+driv...
      - natch 8y ago
        It’s hard to discuss these things when both sides don’t have all the facts. Just as a basic background for what happens, please try this: sit in a recent Tesla, engage autopilot, and read what it says on the screen. Also try ignoring the advice the screen gives you (pretend you didn’t read the “fine” print as you call it, and see what happens when you try to let the car drive with no input.) Do this, then we can talk about this stuff, OK?
        close04 8y ago
natch 8y ago
No, you are just proving my point. The screenshot is talking about future functionality that is not released yet, but you are mistakenly evaluating it as patently false when you have absolutely no way to know, since it isn’t released yet. “System B will do X” is not invalidated by observing that System A does not currently do X.
- close04 8y ago
  > but you are mistakenly evaluating it as patently false when you have absolutely no way to know, since it isn’t released yet. What makes it patently false is that Tesla hasn't proved it even after claiming "next year" for several years now. Even worse, they still don't and can't know if the system will ever be able to perform as described or if the hardware is enough as claimed. If the party making a claim doesn't have the proof for themselves then how can the statement be true today, when they claim it? They are selling today's assumption as a certainty. It doesn't say "we hope" or "be believe" or "it might". They say "it will" with no reservation and no proof available anywhere. That is the falsehood. And just as a sidenote, the company that was providing Tesla with the hardware and knowhow when the statements were originally made, Mobileye, ended the partnership in 2016 because they did not believe their own systems are able to fulfill the promise. That shows that promises were already made once without Tesla having any proof. Any other company doing this and people would be all over them with accusations. But Tesla has great PR, it is actually working for a better future, and people love a good cause enough to disregard the dirt under the rug.
  - natch 8y ago
    This is all a bunch of fake outrage. Words are written. Some people skip reading important parts of those words, and then blame Tesla for their own laziness or poor reading skills. This is basically what you’re doing, although maybe more as an apologist for others who don’t care to read or pay attention. I’m not even talking about fine print. The stuff that covers this is all very straightforward and not fine print at all. People should take responsibility and read what is actually said. The outrage should be directed at people who make wild misinterpretations of perfectly reasonable statements.

xedeon 8y ago

> No, they state it in the fineprint so to speak. Self-Driving is not even released yet, prove me wrong otherwise. What you're attempting to quote are forward looking statements. Maybe you need to read the document you linked, slowly this time.

close04 8y ago
I don't have to prove anything, I know they're not flat out lying [0], they're just misleading. Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. And Tesla doesn't do much to make this distinction clear. [0] Except for the "we'll have it next year" bit. That's just to get a little more cashflow, pretty sure not even Musk expects to have FSD ready "next year" unless it's a perpetual "next year".
- xedeon 8y ago
  > I don’t have to prove anything You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up... Makes you look imprudent. > Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. Everytime you engage Autosteer. You get a warning that says “Always keep your hands on the steering wheel” and “Be prepared to take over at any time”. More importantly, each driver assistance update also explicitly state the capabilities and you HAVE to toggle them on. No where in the car UX or manual even suggests that it can “drive itself”. I think it’s you have the wrong impression. Unless you’re speaking anecdotally, which is I highly doubt.
  - close04 8y ago
    > You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up That's not how the burden of proof works. Tesla is claiming the following: > All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. > The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. Where is the proof of that? The suggestion is that everything is in place short of regulatory approval. And it's always "next year". The result is this [0]. People genuinely believing and insisting that car can drive itself. The result is the only driver fatalities while autonomously driving were in a Tesla. Do you see how people interpret this as "well it's there but you know, pesky regulators want to delay it by testing and stuff". If the vast swaths of internet commenters and drivers that can no longer provide an opinion is not proof enough that the statements are misleading I don't know what is [0] (again). You may see through them but it doesn't make them less misleading. That whole page is designed to give an inflated impression of the state and capabilities of the system regardless of consequences. Other manufacturers have at least equally capable hardware and software but none make these claims, because they are misleading and will cause deaths. What would you think if someone sold you a mobile phone claiming it's able to crack any encryption no matter how strong? Of course it might take longer than the lifetime of the universe but hey, it is possible. Not lying, just misleading. So wanna buy a phone? [0] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+self+driving https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+self+driv...
    - natch 8y ago
      It’s hard to discuss these things when both sides don’t have all the facts. Just as a basic background for what happens, please try this: sit in a recent Tesla, engage autopilot, and read what it says on the screen. Also try ignoring the advice the screen gives you (pretend you didn’t read the “fine” print as you call it, and see what happens when you try to let the car drive with no input.) Do this, then we can talk about this stuff, OK?
      - close04 8y ago

natch 8y ago

No, you are just proving my point. The screenshot is talking about future functionality that is not released yet, but you are mistakenly evaluating it as patently false when you have absolutely no way to know, since it isn’t released yet. “System B will do X” is not invalidated by observing that System A does not currently do X.

close04 8y ago
> but you are mistakenly evaluating it as patently false when you have absolutely no way to know, since it isn’t released yet. What makes it patently false is that Tesla hasn't proved it even after claiming "next year" for several years now. Even worse, they still don't and can't know if the system will ever be able to perform as described or if the hardware is enough as claimed. If the party making a claim doesn't have the proof for themselves then how can the statement be true today, when they claim it? They are selling today's assumption as a certainty. It doesn't say "we hope" or "be believe" or "it might". They say "it will" with no reservation and no proof available anywhere. That is the falsehood. And just as a sidenote, the company that was providing Tesla with the hardware and knowhow when the statements were originally made, Mobileye, ended the partnership in 2016 because they did not believe their own systems are able to fulfill the promise. That shows that promises were already made once without Tesla having any proof. Any other company doing this and people would be all over them with accusations. But Tesla has great PR, it is actually working for a better future, and people love a good cause enough to disregard the dirt under the rug.
- natch 8y ago
  This is all a bunch of fake outrage. Words are written. Some people skip reading important parts of those words, and then blame Tesla for their own laziness or poor reading skills. This is basically what you’re doing, although maybe more as an apologist for others who don’t care to read or pay attention. I’m not even talking about fine print. The stuff that covers this is all very straightforward and not fine print at all. People should take responsibility and read what is actually said. The outrage should be directed at people who make wild misinterpretations of perfectly reasonable statements.