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Why "unfortunately"? Would it be better if every company that does a bad thing was forced to just close shop? If that be the case I'm pretty sure we'll have to

Why "unfortunately"? Would it be better if every company that does a bad thing was forced to just close shop? If that be the case I'm pretty sure we'll have to shut down Tesla within a couple of years over their "Autopilot"/"Full Self Driving" claims.

akanet 8y ago
"Do a bad thing" is a pretty major understatement of the degree of criminality we're talking about here. Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing that embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency.
- xedeon 8y ago
  > embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency. Cite this claim.
  - UncleEntity 8y ago
    > Cite this claim. It is, literally, a large portion of TFA.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  If you excluded every manufacturer that did this at some point, you're pretty much only left with Tesla and probably some other smaller new EV companies.
  - hndamien 8y ago
    This speaks volumes.
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      ... and I wouldn't be all that sure that none of the EV folks aren't cheating on their range tests ...
- natch 8y ago
  >Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing Citation needed. They didn’t do that.
- freeflight 8y ago
  As convenient as it might be to burn VW at the stake for this as the "sacrificial lamb", that misses the point. Because VW ain't the only ones who engage in these kinds of tactics, by now it seems like it's some kind of "open industry secret" how manufacturers try to get the best measuring results during environmental testing for those good ratings, which directly translates to good marketing.
natch 8y ago
You may have misread what Tesla says about these technologies. They state very clearly that FSD is not here yet, and they also are very clear about the limitations of Autopilot. The problem is that people (like you, for example) mistakenly assume there are “claims” beyond the statements that are made.
- close04 8y ago
  > They state very clearly They state it in the fineprint. This is what the Tesla Autopilot page used to say for years (this is a 1+ year old screenshot) [0]. Which part of that is accurate? How clear are they about the limitations and the real capabilities of the system? Tesla took the narrow areas where those systems can do a reasonably good job and extrapolated to the whole self-driving experience, blaming regulations for the bits that aren't really there. No autonomous system in the world at this time is capable of anything close to what a human is. They still claim that: > Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed Which is patently false. [0] https://imgur.com/a/bsgxCCn https://imgur.com/a/bsgxCCn
  - xedeon 8y ago
    > No, they state it in the fineprint so to speak. Self-Driving is not even released yet, prove me wrong otherwise. What you're attempting to quote are forward looking statements. Maybe you need to read the document you linked, slowly this time.
    - close04 8y ago
      I don't have to prove anything, I know they're not flat out lying [0], they're just misleading. Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. And Tesla doesn't do much to make this distinction clear. [0] Except for the "we'll have it next year" bit. That's just to get a little more cashflow, pretty sure not even Musk expects to have FSD ready "next year" unless it's a perpetual "next year".

akanet 8y ago

"Do a bad thing" is a pretty major understatement of the degree of criminality we're talking about here. Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing that embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency.

xedeon 8y ago
> embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency. Cite this claim.
- UncleEntity 8y ago
  > Cite this claim. It is, literally, a large portion of TFA.
blattimwind 8y ago
If you excluded every manufacturer that did this at some point, you're pretty much only left with Tesla and probably some other smaller new EV companies.
- hndamien 8y ago
  This speaks volumes.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    ... and I wouldn't be all that sure that none of the EV folks aren't cheating on their range tests ...
natch 8y ago
>Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing Citation needed. They didn’t do that.
freeflight 8y ago
As convenient as it might be to burn VW at the stake for this as the "sacrificial lamb", that misses the point. Because VW ain't the only ones who engage in these kinds of tactics, by now it seems like it's some kind of "open industry secret" how manufacturers try to get the best measuring results during environmental testing for those good ratings, which directly translates to good marketing.

natch 8y ago

You may have misread what Tesla says about these technologies. They state very clearly that FSD is not here yet, and they also are very clear about the limitations of Autopilot. The problem is that people (like you, for example) mistakenly assume there are “claims” beyond the statements that are made.

close04 8y ago
> They state very clearly They state it in the fineprint. This is what the Tesla Autopilot page used to say for years (this is a 1+ year old screenshot) [0]. Which part of that is accurate? How clear are they about the limitations and the real capabilities of the system? Tesla took the narrow areas where those systems can do a reasonably good job and extrapolated to the whole self-driving experience, blaming regulations for the bits that aren't really there. No autonomous system in the world at this time is capable of anything close to what a human is. They still claim that: > Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed Which is patently false. [0] https://imgur.com/a/bsgxCCn https://imgur.com/a/bsgxCCn
- xedeon 8y ago
  > No, they state it in the fineprint so to speak. Self-Driving is not even released yet, prove me wrong otherwise. What you're attempting to quote are forward looking statements. Maybe you need to read the document you linked, slowly this time.
  - close04 8y ago
    I don't have to prove anything, I know they're not flat out lying [0], they're just misleading. Many drivers (ask the dead) are/were under the impression that the car can drive itself. And Tesla doesn't do much to make this distinction clear. [0] Except for the "we'll have it next year" bit. That's just to get a little more cashflow, pretty sure not even Musk expects to have FSD ready "next year" unless it's a perpetual "next year".