10 ms·

Tracing child abusers: Where was this picture taken? [video]

148 points by cskau 8y ago

Macuyiko 8y ago
Hopefully we'll come to a point soon where AI and deep learning can help out in this space. I remember models being trained that could predict the country based on a street view photo with a high degree of accuracy, which would be a good first step. The next one would be to either match a top-down satellite photo with a picture, or figure out a way to match street view photos based on similarity. Given that Google actually has the data as well as the skills and computing power to help out Europol, I'd have hoped they'd be jumping at the opportunity to do so. At the least it would make for great PR, but perhaps they're afraid of the possible privacy issues and discussions as well (I can already see the headlines: "Google knows the location of any yard appearing in a photo!"). In any case, it's telling how humans are so good at this stuff and picking up on clues and patterns. It'll still take a while before machines are as good.
- tomohawk 8y ago
  Maybew Europol could do a Kaggle competition?
- zenexer 8y ago
  That’s not really how any of this works—you can’t simply throw a bunch of unrelated data at some algorithms and expect usable output. (There’s also no such thing as “deep learning”.) Law enforcement and related organizations already use machine learning quite a bit, particularly for image enhancement. Yes, Google does have a lot of images of various locations from a top-down perspective, but that isn’t helpful for accurately determining a location from the images that Europol collects. Also, keep in mind that Europol is only posting images here when all other means of determining location and identity have been exhausted. The images are usually indoors and don’t contain enough information for ML to be of any significant use. You might be able to narrow it down to a probably country based colors and design patterns, but that’s hardly sufficient and not solid enough evidence to actually do anything.
  - areyousure 8y ago
    > There’s also no such thing as “deep learning”. What do you mean by that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning
  - Macuyiko 8y ago
    > That’s not really how any of this works—you can’t simply throw a bunch of unrelated data at some algorithms and expect usable output. That is never what I claimed. First, note that I took a pretty (IMO) balanced view and indicated that this is still a hard setting. Second, note that I did indicate that sufficient training (i.e. labeled) data would be required. This is what was possible in 2016: https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/25/11112594/google-new-deep-learning-image-location-planet https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/25/11112594/google-new-deep-...: "The new deep-learning program churns through millions of photos to determine the best match." Also see project of a fast.ai participant: "Which of the 110 countries a satellite image belongs to?" (point 13 here: https://forums.fast.ai/t/deep-learning-lesson-2-notes/28772 https://forums.fast.ai/t/deep-learning-lesson-2-notes/28772) > (There’s also no such thing as “deep learning”.) - https://www.deeplearningbook.org/ https://www.deeplearningbook.org/ - https://www.coursera.org/courses?query=deep%20learning https://www.coursera.org/courses?query=deep%20learning - https://eu.udacity.com/course/intro-to-tensorflow-for-deep-learning--ud187 https://eu.udacity.com/course/intro-to-tensorflow-for-deep-l... - https://www.edx.org/professional-certificate/ibm-deep-learning https://www.edx.org/professional-certificate/ibm-deep-learni... - https://www.deeplearning.ai https://www.deeplearning.ai - https://www.fast.ai/ https://www.fast.ai/ > Yes, Google does have a lot of images of various locations from a top-down perspective, but that isn’t helpful for accurately determining a location from the images that Europol collects. You might be able to narrow it down to a probably country based colors and design patterns, but that’s hardly sufficient and not solid enough evidence to actually do anything. Maybe not completely, but again: being able to narrow it down would already be an incredible help, especially for outdoor pictures (which were also shown in the article's video). I never claimed that a model would completely replace the human process. Also, I find the downvotes (not saying you) on my initial comment to be in pretty bad form. I'm not Jeremy Howard or Andrew Ng, but don't think I was blowing smoke, and work in the area of data science and ML.
LifeLiverTransp 8y ago
Should be solveable with a NN trained on Matching Google Streetview and the images..
- ekianjo 8y ago
  Google Street View is limited to what you can see from the street. It would not work for several types of location.
  - giarc 8y ago
    Very true, but the article says there are 40 million images. Likely will work for a non-zero portion of the images.
  - quickthrower2 8y ago
    Google earth was used to narrow down one of the locations (says so on the video) but required some serious sluething from an architect, so I presume beyond the means of current AI tech.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- drawinglibrary 8y ago
  Yeah and we shouldn't worry about climate change because AI will just magically solve it like Sergey says. You recognize how naive stuff like this sounds right?
JeanMarcS 8y ago
If there can be a first sort done by AI and then human contribution to try to narrow it better it might be helpfull. Like « this picture seems to be located in this area/country » and then people from the area could have a look. I’m pretty sure people would like to help.
- wickedsmile 8y ago
  Please no thanks! Once AI is brought into equation, project executives put all efforts into removing Humans from the chain because AI is cheaper See YouTube AI based moderation and infractions, it's too difficult and no where to go if AI slaps you
- 7952 8y ago
  It would be great if that was possible. But in the meantime human beings are amazingly good at this kind of thing. Our brains are highly optimised for this kind of work.
Snoozus 8y ago
Here the direct link to the picture database https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse
- dictum 8y ago
  This is when I spare a thought for people whose job is to moderate user-posted content. None of these pictures have signs of immediate physical violence, but just looking at them and thinking of their possible backstories makes my stomach churn.
  - throwaway09873 8y ago
    Don't let your imagination run wild. Most child abuse is nonviolent, usually committed by family or acquaintances of the child.
- nothrabannosir 8y ago
  https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_large/public/images/2018-2-g9.png?itok=SOJEIEuK https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur... That card looks like a pokemon card with a Google Chrome logo. Frustratingly familiar.
  - dictum 8y ago
    It looks a bit like the Domino's Pizza logo (but the whitespace inside the blue area wouldn't bleed so much into the outside, I think) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Domino%27s_pizza_logo.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Domino%27s_pizza_logo.svg
  - stordoff 8y ago
    Voltorb, maybe? https://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/xy1/44/ https://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-seri...
  - probably_wrong 8y ago
    The thing on the back looks surprisingly similar to a package of "Yerba Rosamonte"[1], which would place this picture in Argentina/Uruguay. But it's too low res to say whether that's the case, or just pareidolia. [1] https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=yerba%20rosamonte&tbs=imgo:1 https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=yerba%20rosamonte&t...
tyingq 8y ago
Some of the techniques a group on 4chan used are interesting: https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/remember-when-4chan-users-got-a-terrorist-training-camp-bombed-by-russia.455038424/ https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/remember-when-4chan-users...
- yummypaint 8y ago
  I wonder if the posts suggesting the actual coordinates and messages were made by people connected to russian intelligence.. Just a thought
  - cf498 8y ago
    The people following the Syrian civil war are rather dedicated and the training camp was not the first or last time some videos got geolocated (though without any real life consequences in the other cases). I dont see a reason for a PR stunt as you describe it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- samstave 8y ago
  Remember when 4chan weaponized agains Shia LeBouf's flag and were able to determine the location of the ground flag based on the contrail evidence of the flight path of what the camera could see. The camera was only pointing at the sky, with the flag in the image. They were able to determine approx latitude due to the live stream revealing the sunset - and then comparing the paths of planes seen in the camera with flight data... Then they drove to the location and took out the flag Joe Rogan on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBK1_ixiro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBK1_ixiro Some random on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ABXvbMSc4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ABXvbMSc4
  - m348e912 8y ago
    I am not one to doubt the impressive capablity of a hoard of highly motivated 4chan autists, but it does become a lot less spectacular of a feat if you consider LaBeouf was spotted in a Greenville, TN diner around the same time as the flag hunt was underway (which was twitter knowledge). I thought their triangulation efforts through driving around, beeping a car horn, and listening if the sound came through on cam audio was the most impressive part of their detective work.
gonzo41 8y ago
This is also a good article, not sure if it's been featured here before. https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2018/11/08/europols-asian-city-child-abuse-photographs-geolocated/ https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2018/11/08...
howard941 8y ago
Andrew Sullivan used to run a contest doing something similar albeit less serious and with remarkably good results http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/vfyw-contest/ http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/vfyw-contest/
pvaldes 8y ago
Photo number 9. The box shows a picture of an Asteraceae that fits well with Cichorium intybus, a vegetable cultured in temperate areas (from Europe mainly), and the colours of the Romanian flag. https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-5-g28.png?itok=oMUT8Ms6 https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur... over the green square, appears a whitish blur that could easily say Cicoarea in a stylised way (or maybe is just another picture)
mattferderer 8y ago
I wonder if people who use a popular photo sharing site like Google Photos would be in favor of there photos with location meta data being used for a project like this. I think I would if I could trust that it was only being used for something like this & not commercial advertising type projects.
pvaldes 8y ago
In this photo there is a small tree at rigth that is partially clipped. Compound leaves with five leaflets. Probably Fraxinus. Fits well. Temperate area in this case. https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-5-g13.png?itok=XpgbNRoj https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur... If is Fraxinus excelsior (probably) Europe. If Fraxinus pensylvannica: Eastern half of USA or Argentina.
- bobowzki 8y ago
  The writing on the backpack looks Cyrillic to me.
14 8y ago
What incentive could be added to have people view these photos on a regular basis? I think facebook could be one answer with it's global reach. They could do an official page or something and offer real discounts at partnering restaurants or stores from around the world if you spend time each month viewing all the pictures. Imagine the reach they could have. At the same time I feel that there should not be a business of restaurants and the like selling coupons on abuse photos but I think the greater good of finding these kids may be there. The reason I add a type of payment is because it is my belief that though people do mean well, without an incentive they are less likely to view these images. Or perhaps if add companies put those kind of pictures on the websites instead of ads I would disable the adblocker.
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  What's wrong with money
bane 8y ago
I was able to see a presentation about this topic one time by ICE. It tragic in two senses: 1) The crimes themselves are absolutely intolerable to society. 2) The lack of serious resourcing the seriousness of this crime should warrant. Part of the presentation was specifically on identifying the location a sequence of photos was taken in the hopes that it would narrow down the search radius for the offender. The team that did the work were members of the ICE HERO program -- one of the coolest veteran-to-civilian programs I've ever seen [1][2]. The folks literally spent weeks "driving" around likely areas in Google maps trying to identify the location. Because the photo was taken from an angle that the car wouldn't have seen, they weren't able to use any automation at all and it literally took a human's intuitive understanding of 3-D spaces to eventually figure it out. However, what was really tough was that the HERO program only exists because it offers an internship that costs very little to DHS -- they simply can't afford a large group of full-time staff. I urge anybody who can to petition to better fund anti-child abuse programs. 1 - https://www.ice.gov/hero https://www.ice.gov/hero 2 - http://www.herocorps.net/ http://www.herocorps.net/
- dennisgorelik 8y ago
  These "presentations" are very vague. What crimes, specifically, do they try to prevent or prosecute? Why victims are not complaining about these crimes?
  - botwriter 8y ago
    well because the victims are usually threatened, children.
    - dennisgorelik 8y ago
      "Usually" does not mean "always". Giving threats is a crime in itself. Threatening victims does not guarantee victims' silence. If that crime is widespread then there still should be plenty of victims who, actually, report that crime.
  - astrodust 8y ago
anotheryou 8y ago
This should be a subreddit. Reddit is pretty good for these things, they have a big, global audience and a great comment system for such things. e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/ works great.
- pavel_lishin 8y ago
  They also have a habit of mis-identifying people and hounding them down.
  - anotheryou 8y ago
    well this material seems luckily carefully selected and without I persons visible. A found place is also pretty easy to verify.
    - pavel_lishin 8y ago
      Sure. But I think Pizzagate has shown us that there's enough weirdos out there who'll show up to a place demanding answers. And don't forget, people are strongly died to locations. If Reddit decides that a particular photo is located at 287 FM 772, that's someone's house, and a name can easily be associated with it. Nobody wants to receive a Google alert that their name is suddenly popping up in /r/find-a-pedophile
pvaldes 8y ago
Can't identify the background trees at this low resolution, but there is a small Fabaceae tree in the photo that looks like either Robinia pseudoacacia or Sophora. This trees have heavy seeds that do not go very far. Some bigger trees from one of this species could probably be seen near this area. Maybe in the streets (or in a garden). https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/13s.jpg?itok=wm1V3Ktl https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur... Robinia is a fully hardy and widespread species that can be found in almost all Europe and USA, USDA area 1a.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Just realized that is the same area as this second photo, so if is Asia nothing of the former is appliable. The list of possible fabaceae trees is much bigger then. There is a pinnate-leaved palm also, so in principle areas colder than -12 could be excluded (USDA 8a). https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-6-c20.png?itok=-5CgP08Z https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    Ok, I was looking at the medium size. At larger resolution the photo is more interesting that it seems. Four different threes and something more. They should examine it more carefully. The big trunk in the background is from the same Fabaceae also. Senna could show a similar bark and leaves. Senna siamea from Thailand for example looks similar. There is a sapling of something that looks like a Psidium also and maybe a Schefflera. All tentatively.
Kadin 8y ago
Looking at the swingset photo (https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_large/public/images/333s.jpg?itok=qQWK_hlz https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...) That's an interesting design of swingset; not one I've seen before. Unlike the bog-standard swingset in the US, which is typically all steel tube, that one looks like it has extruded (aluminum?) verticals and then a tubular horizontal weldment as the top piece. Further, the horizontal looks like it was hot-dip galvanized as a finished unit. The verticals were painted before assembly, not after, because of the bare-metal bolt heads. The fasteners are presumably stainless, since I don't see any rust marks below them. It's got an interesting bearing/bushing at the top of each chain, probably to make it not squeak; that strikes me as a fairly luxe feature. I couldn't find any similar ones searching around online, although my Google searches don't turn up many European models at all (thanks, Google). The photo doesn't go up enough to be sure, but it looks like the top bar is an unbroken one-piece section. That would make it pretty bulky and awkward to ship. (The vertical pieces look like they come apart into about 4 ft sections, which means they were likely palletized at one point. Maybe the extrusions are not done in the same place as the rest of the manufacturing..? That's certainly plausible.) If someone recognized the design/model, I think that would probably be a significant clue towards the photo's location; at the very least, the manufacturer would probably have a fairly good idea of where they normally sell to.
- IntegrationDude 8y ago
  Is that an unusual swingset design? I'm pretty sure i've seen it in lots of places...
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    The metal arches as reinforcements in the top corners are not so common. The use of polyethylene plaques as decor and reinforcements started in 1970 it seems.
- usr1106 8y ago
  Looks like a Lappset to me. That does not help much, they are selling in at least 50 countries https://www.lappset.com/Contact-us https://www.lappset.com/Contact-us
HNLurker2 8y ago
Do not reverse search images on Google.

148 points by cskau 8y ago

Hopefully we'll come to a point soon where AI and deep learning can help out in this space. I remember models being trained that could predict the country based on a street view photo with a high degree of accuracy, which would be a good first step. The next one would be to either match a top-down satellite photo with a picture, or figure out a way to match street view photos based on similarity. Given that Google actually has the data as well as the skills and computing power to help out Europol, I'd have hoped they'd be jumping at the opportunity to do so. At the least it would make for great PR, but perhaps they're afraid of the possible privacy issues and discussions as well (I can already see the headlines: "Google knows the location of any yard appearing in a photo!"). In any case, it's telling how humans are so good at this stuff and picking up on clues and patterns. It'll still take a while before machines are as good.

tomohawk 8y ago
Maybew Europol could do a Kaggle competition?
zenexer 8y ago
That’s not really how any of this works—you can’t simply throw a bunch of unrelated data at some algorithms and expect usable output. (There’s also no such thing as “deep learning”.) Law enforcement and related organizations already use machine learning quite a bit, particularly for image enhancement. Yes, Google does have a lot of images of various locations from a top-down perspective, but that isn’t helpful for accurately determining a location from the images that Europol collects. Also, keep in mind that Europol is only posting images here when all other means of determining location and identity have been exhausted. The images are usually indoors and don’t contain enough information for ML to be of any significant use. You might be able to narrow it down to a probably country based colors and design patterns, but that’s hardly sufficient and not solid enough evidence to actually do anything.
- areyousure 8y ago
  > There’s also no such thing as “deep learning”. What do you mean by that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning
- Macuyiko 8y ago
  > That’s not really how any of this works—you can’t simply throw a bunch of unrelated data at some algorithms and expect usable output. That is never what I claimed. First, note that I took a pretty (IMO) balanced view and indicated that this is still a hard setting. Second, note that I did indicate that sufficient training (i.e. labeled) data would be required. This is what was possible in 2016: https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/25/11112594/google-new-deep-learning-image-location-planet https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/25/11112594/google-new-deep-...: "The new deep-learning program churns through millions of photos to determine the best match." Also see project of a fast.ai participant: "Which of the 110 countries a satellite image belongs to?" (point 13 here: https://forums.fast.ai/t/deep-learning-lesson-2-notes/28772 https://forums.fast.ai/t/deep-learning-lesson-2-notes/28772) > (There’s also no such thing as “deep learning”.) - https://www.deeplearningbook.org/ https://www.deeplearningbook.org/ - https://www.coursera.org/courses?query=deep%20learning https://www.coursera.org/courses?query=deep%20learning - https://eu.udacity.com/course/intro-to-tensorflow-for-deep-learning--ud187 https://eu.udacity.com/course/intro-to-tensorflow-for-deep-l... - https://www.edx.org/professional-certificate/ibm-deep-learning https://www.edx.org/professional-certificate/ibm-deep-learni... - https://www.deeplearning.ai https://www.deeplearning.ai - https://www.fast.ai/ https://www.fast.ai/ > Yes, Google does have a lot of images of various locations from a top-down perspective, but that isn’t helpful for accurately determining a location from the images that Europol collects. You might be able to narrow it down to a probably country based colors and design patterns, but that’s hardly sufficient and not solid enough evidence to actually do anything. Maybe not completely, but again: being able to narrow it down would already be an incredible help, especially for outdoor pictures (which were also shown in the article's video). I never claimed that a model would completely replace the human process. Also, I find the downvotes (not saying you) on my initial comment to be in pretty bad form. I'm not Jeremy Howard or Andrew Ng, but don't think I was blowing smoke, and work in the area of data science and ML.

LifeLiverTransp 8y ago

Should be solveable with a NN trained on Matching Google Streetview and the images..

ekianjo 8y ago
Google Street View is limited to what you can see from the street. It would not work for several types of location.
- giarc 8y ago
  Very true, but the article says there are 40 million images. Likely will work for a non-zero portion of the images.
- quickthrower2 8y ago
  Google earth was used to narrow down one of the locations (says so on the video) but required some serious sluething from an architect, so I presume beyond the means of current AI tech.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
drawinglibrary 8y ago
Yeah and we shouldn't worry about climate change because AI will just magically solve it like Sergey says. You recognize how naive stuff like this sounds right?

JeanMarcS 8y ago

If there can be a first sort done by AI and then human contribution to try to narrow it better it might be helpfull. Like « this picture seems to be located in this area/country » and then people from the area could have a look. I’m pretty sure people would like to help.

wickedsmile 8y ago
Please no thanks! Once AI is brought into equation, project executives put all efforts into removing Humans from the chain because AI is cheaper See YouTube AI based moderation and infractions, it's too difficult and no where to go if AI slaps you
7952 8y ago
It would be great if that was possible. But in the meantime human beings are amazingly good at this kind of thing. Our brains are highly optimised for this kind of work.

Snoozus 8y ago

Here the direct link to the picture database https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse

dictum 8y ago
This is when I spare a thought for people whose job is to moderate user-posted content. None of these pictures have signs of immediate physical violence, but just looking at them and thinking of their possible backstories makes my stomach churn.
- throwaway09873 8y ago
  Don't let your imagination run wild. Most child abuse is nonviolent, usually committed by family or acquaintances of the child.
nothrabannosir 8y ago
https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_large/public/images/2018-2-g9.png?itok=SOJEIEuK https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur... That card looks like a pokemon card with a Google Chrome logo. Frustratingly familiar.
- dictum 8y ago
  It looks a bit like the Domino's Pizza logo (but the whitespace inside the blue area wouldn't bleed so much into the outside, I think) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Domino%27s_pizza_logo.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Domino%27s_pizza_logo.svg
- stordoff 8y ago
  Voltorb, maybe? https://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/xy1/44/ https://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-seri...
- probably_wrong 8y ago
  The thing on the back looks surprisingly similar to a package of "Yerba Rosamonte"[1], which would place this picture in Argentina/Uruguay. But it's too low res to say whether that's the case, or just pareidolia. [1] https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=yerba%20rosamonte&tbs=imgo:1 https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=yerba%20rosamonte&t...

tyingq 8y ago

Some of the techniques a group on 4chan used are interesting: https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/remember-when-4chan-users-got-a-terrorist-training-camp-bombed-by-russia.455038424/ https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/remember-when-4chan-users...

yummypaint 8y ago
I wonder if the posts suggesting the actual coordinates and messages were made by people connected to russian intelligence.. Just a thought
- cf498 8y ago
  The people following the Syrian civil war are rather dedicated and the training camp was not the first or last time some videos got geolocated (though without any real life consequences in the other cases). I dont see a reason for a PR stunt as you describe it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
samstave 8y ago
Remember when 4chan weaponized agains Shia LeBouf's flag and were able to determine the location of the ground flag based on the contrail evidence of the flight path of what the camera could see. The camera was only pointing at the sky, with the flag in the image. They were able to determine approx latitude due to the live stream revealing the sunset - and then comparing the paths of planes seen in the camera with flight data... Then they drove to the location and took out the flag Joe Rogan on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBK1_ixiro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBK1_ixiro Some random on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ABXvbMSc4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ABXvbMSc4
- m348e912 8y ago
  I am not one to doubt the impressive capablity of a hoard of highly motivated 4chan autists, but it does become a lot less spectacular of a feat if you consider LaBeouf was spotted in a Greenville, TN diner around the same time as the flag hunt was underway (which was twitter knowledge). I thought their triangulation efforts through driving around, beeping a car horn, and listening if the sound came through on cam audio was the most impressive part of their detective work.

gonzo41 8y ago

This is also a good article, not sure if it's been featured here before. https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2018/11/08/europols-asian-city-child-abuse-photographs-geolocated/ https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2018/11/08...

howard941 8y ago

Andrew Sullivan used to run a contest doing something similar albeit less serious and with remarkably good results http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/vfyw-contest/ http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/vfyw-contest/

pvaldes 8y ago

Photo number 9. The box shows a picture of an Asteraceae that fits well with Cichorium intybus, a vegetable cultured in temperate areas (from Europe mainly), and the colours of the Romanian flag. https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-5-g28.png?itok=oMUT8Ms6 https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur... over the green square, appears a whitish blur that could easily say Cicoarea in a stylised way (or maybe is just another picture)

mattferderer 8y ago

I wonder if people who use a popular photo sharing site like Google Photos would be in favor of there photos with location meta data being used for a project like this. I think I would if I could trust that it was only being used for something like this & not commercial advertising type projects.

pvaldes 8y ago

In this photo there is a small tree at rigth that is partially clipped. Compound leaves with five leaflets. Probably Fraxinus. Fits well. Temperate area in this case. https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-5-g13.png?itok=XpgbNRoj https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur... If is Fraxinus excelsior (probably) Europe. If Fraxinus pensylvannica: Eastern half of USA or Argentina.

bobowzki 8y ago
The writing on the backpack looks Cyrillic to me.

14 8y ago

What incentive could be added to have people view these photos on a regular basis? I think facebook could be one answer with it's global reach. They could do an official page or something and offer real discounts at partnering restaurants or stores from around the world if you spend time each month viewing all the pictures. Imagine the reach they could have. At the same time I feel that there should not be a business of restaurants and the like selling coupons on abuse photos but I think the greater good of finding these kids may be there. The reason I add a type of payment is because it is my belief that though people do mean well, without an incentive they are less likely to view these images. Or perhaps if add companies put those kind of pictures on the websites instead of ads I would disable the adblocker.

anigbrowl 8y ago
What's wrong with money

bane 8y ago

I was able to see a presentation about this topic one time by ICE. It tragic in two senses: 1) The crimes themselves are absolutely intolerable to society. 2) The lack of serious resourcing the seriousness of this crime should warrant. Part of the presentation was specifically on identifying the location a sequence of photos was taken in the hopes that it would narrow down the search radius for the offender. The team that did the work were members of the ICE HERO program -- one of the coolest veteran-to-civilian programs I've ever seen [1][2]. The folks literally spent weeks "driving" around likely areas in Google maps trying to identify the location. Because the photo was taken from an angle that the car wouldn't have seen, they weren't able to use any automation at all and it literally took a human's intuitive understanding of 3-D spaces to eventually figure it out. However, what was really tough was that the HERO program only exists because it offers an internship that costs very little to DHS -- they simply can't afford a large group of full-time staff. I urge anybody who can to petition to better fund anti-child abuse programs. 1 - https://www.ice.gov/hero https://www.ice.gov/hero 2 - http://www.herocorps.net/ http://www.herocorps.net/

dennisgorelik 8y ago
These "presentations" are very vague. What crimes, specifically, do they try to prevent or prosecute? Why victims are not complaining about these crimes?
- botwriter 8y ago
  well because the victims are usually threatened, children.
  - dennisgorelik 8y ago
    "Usually" does not mean "always". Giving threats is a crime in itself. Threatening victims does not guarantee victims' silence. If that crime is widespread then there still should be plenty of victims who, actually, report that crime.
- astrodust 8y ago

anotheryou 8y ago

This should be a subreddit. Reddit is pretty good for these things, they have a big, global audience and a great comment system for such things. e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/ works great.

pavel_lishin 8y ago
They also have a habit of mis-identifying people and hounding them down.
- anotheryou 8y ago
  well this material seems luckily carefully selected and without I persons visible. A found place is also pretty easy to verify.
  - pavel_lishin 8y ago
    Sure. But I think Pizzagate has shown us that there's enough weirdos out there who'll show up to a place demanding answers. And don't forget, people are strongly died to locations. If Reddit decides that a particular photo is located at 287 FM 772, that's someone's house, and a name can easily be associated with it. Nobody wants to receive a Google alert that their name is suddenly popping up in /r/find-a-pedophile

pvaldes 8y ago

Can't identify the background trees at this low resolution, but there is a small Fabaceae tree in the photo that looks like either Robinia pseudoacacia or Sophora. This trees have heavy seeds that do not go very far. Some bigger trees from one of this species could probably be seen near this area. Maybe in the streets (or in a garden). https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/13s.jpg?itok=wm1V3Ktl https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur... Robinia is a fully hardy and widespread species that can be found in almost all Europe and USA, USDA area 1a.

pvaldes 8y ago
Just realized that is the same area as this second photo, so if is Asia nothing of the former is appliable. The list of possible fabaceae trees is much bigger then. There is a pinnate-leaved palm also, so in principle areas colder than -12 could be excluded (USDA 8a). https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-6-c20.png?itok=-5CgP08Z https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Ok, I was looking at the medium size. At larger resolution the photo is more interesting that it seems. Four different threes and something more. They should examine it more carefully. The big trunk in the background is from the same Fabaceae also. Senna could show a similar bark and leaves. Senna siamea from Thailand for example looks similar. There is a sapling of something that looks like a Psidium also and maybe a Schefflera. All tentatively.

Kadin 8y ago

Looking at the swingset photo (https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_large/public/images/333s.jpg?itok=qQWK_hlz https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...) That's an interesting design of swingset; not one I've seen before. Unlike the bog-standard swingset in the US, which is typically all steel tube, that one looks like it has extruded (aluminum?) verticals and then a tubular horizontal weldment as the top piece. Further, the horizontal looks like it was hot-dip galvanized as a finished unit. The verticals were painted before assembly, not after, because of the bare-metal bolt heads. The fasteners are presumably stainless, since I don't see any rust marks below them. It's got an interesting bearing/bushing at the top of each chain, probably to make it not squeak; that strikes me as a fairly luxe feature. I couldn't find any similar ones searching around online, although my Google searches don't turn up many European models at all (thanks, Google). The photo doesn't go up enough to be sure, but it looks like the top bar is an unbroken one-piece section. That would make it pretty bulky and awkward to ship. (The vertical pieces look like they come apart into about 4 ft sections, which means they were likely palletized at one point. Maybe the extrusions are not done in the same place as the rest of the manufacturing..? That's certainly plausible.) If someone recognized the design/model, I think that would probably be a significant clue towards the photo's location; at the very least, the manufacturer would probably have a fairly good idea of where they normally sell to.

IntegrationDude 8y ago
Is that an unusual swingset design? I'm pretty sure i've seen it in lots of places...
- pvaldes 8y ago
  The metal arches as reinforcements in the top corners are not so common. The use of polyethylene plaques as decor and reinforcements started in 1970 it seems.
usr1106 8y ago
Looks like a Lappset to me. That does not help much, they are selling in at least 50 countries https://www.lappset.com/Contact-us https://www.lappset.com/Contact-us

HNLurker2 8y ago

Do not reverse search images on Google.