9 ms·

Fuck The Vessel

111 points by portobello 8y ago

iandanforth 8y ago
"We were on assignment. We were supposed to kill 2 birds with one stone. Destroy a piece of corporate art... Operation Latte Thunder, go. and trash a franchise coffee bar." Let's hope they put a starbucks in the thing.
stickfigure 8y ago
Everyone's a fucking critic.
- astazangasta 8y ago
  I mean, hopefully.
- asgdionionio 8y ago
  The author is an architecture critic.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Well, her criticism was deemed worthy of inclusion in the US Library of Congress.
  - wallacoloo 8y ago
    Yes, and so is My Little Pony fanfiction in the library of congress [1]. It's not exactly a very exclusive library, nor does the criteria for getting media into their catalog have anything to do with the subjective quality or meaningfulness of the piece. [1] https://lccn.loc.gov/2016963536 https://lccn.loc.gov/2016963536
yathern 8y ago
I visited Hudson Yards and the Vessel on the opening day. I don't find the Vessel itself to be as architecturally offensive as others, I think it's a fine idea. A seven story mall, however, is a preposterous idea. In a day and age when malls are dying. Especially in a city! Malls were made to emulate city centers, and Manhattan already is great to wander around. The whole experience is just so very clearly synthetic. There's no unifying theme or feel, other than that of "we spent a whole lot of money making this place, it can't fail". I imagine I'll continue to see lots of marketing about it over the next 10 years, desperately trying to make it a tourist attraction. Maybe they'll succeed.
- whistlerbrk 8y ago
  I work at WTC and this is exactly how I feel about the area under the Oculus connecting the Brookfield Mall. It's like a scene out of Gattaca, a massive dizzyling underground mall/complex with no natural light filled with luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at. Everyone walks through in a daze, seemingly impressed by the magnitude of the cavern but at the same I can't help to think they feel as equally empty and drained by it as me. Developments like Hudson Yards seem to be cargo culturing culture. If we build a public arts space, offices, restaurants, shops, and a playground then surely people will arrive, right?! Feels very weird.
  - walterbell 8y ago
    > luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at 3D walk-in billboards.
    - caprese 8y ago
      Exactly, I think of them as exhibits. I've looked at brick and mortar as museums for a long time and I'm not the only one. My wonderment and praise for the gallery curator shattered by the clerk trying to upsell me on a store credit card or data mining loyalty program. "Why are you talking?" Must be the quizzical expression my face makes as I take slightly too long to reply. For actually purchasing something going into a retail store is basically a game of "how is the sales person going to lie to me today". It should come with a laugh track streamed live on twitch.
  - crazygringo 8y ago
    > with no natural light I mean, I agree with you a lot, but the Oculus itself is tons of natural light, it's all soaring windows: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZQvDMR-aOZc/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZQvDMR-aOZc/maxresdefault.jpg The above-ground Oculus structure is beautiful and inspiring in a way little architecture in that part of the city is.
  - atombender 8y ago
    > filled with luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at This [1] Reddit thread from the other day was interesting reading. Those empty luxury shops are definitely to a large extent ads for high-end companies who just want to have a New York presence. Same thing on 5th avenue and in airports. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskNYC/comments/b2n7y6/people_that_work_retail_at_the_oculus/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskNYC/comments/b2n7y6/people_that_...
walterbell 8y ago
From https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/hudson-yards-is-the-hotel-california-of-new-york https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/hudson-ya... > Hudson Yards is a private space masquerading as a public one ... In reality it is an enclave, a high-end corporate park buoyed by six billion dollars in tax breaks—an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon for its scuttled Queens headquarters—and designed as a kind of amenity-stuffed Hotel California that its residents never have to leave ... The only thing that Hudson Yards is missing is its own weather ... what Hudson Yards really feels like is a nice airport terminal, with the High Line as its moving walkway"
- caprese 8y ago
  > an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon one thing I really love about NYC is how easy it is to deflect attention and get what you want exhibit A: "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead, serving to highlight the fickle nature of an unorganized protest where the cause/perpetuator of inequality is so easily interchangeable to whoever is the richest. Granted, these cities don't really know much about each other's struggles, so you see a lot of the same arguments rehashed and evolve in different ways ie: Austin recently dealt with a cultural appropriation uproar over a "Bodega", and not cultural appropriation from NYC lol, its just whoever is the loudest. exhibit B: Walmart is practically banned from NYC in an effort to save/protect local businesses, while every major, minor, and luxury retailer enjoys larger than life flagship versions of their stores positioned in space constrained Manhattan. exhibit C: The way tax breaks are made relevant news at all. Hudson Yards isn't the only place getting it.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    Hudson Yards is way more than a standard tax break bonanza. Tax-free City and state authority bonds were issued to finance it. The Amazon deal was all about NYS politics and the changes in leadership in the state legislature.
    - 8y ago
dwighttk 8y ago
If you take a selfie on top of The Vessel while drinking from your Vessyl do you unlock an easter egg?
Nelkins 8y ago
Well at the very least one thing it has in common with the Eiffel Tower is that both were initially met with universal derision. The Eiffel Tower is now one of the most iconic and beloved landmarks in Paris...time will tell if the "Vessel" gets the same treatment.
- SiempreViernes 8y ago
  The things met by universal derision then kept that reputation is by far the larger set. Additionally, the Eiffel tower mostly drew criticism during its construction[0], not once it was finished. If the vessel could muster the "it's not finished" defence, then that would probably settle people down. It does look like a cool start on something impressive, but the vacuousness that Wagner objects to shows: the thing looks unfinished, a cool 3d printed prototype you made to look at and then put on a shelf after 10 minutes. Frankly the pictures form the actual construction were more impressive than the finished things, just because before completion you could always try to imagine it completed as something more. [0]: https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2015/1120/How-the-Eiffel-Tower-outlasted-its-critics https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2015/1120/...
0db532a0 8y ago
TLDR: The author has still to come to terms with the meaninglessness, contrivance and absurdity of her own life and of everything around her, and has been pushed by a meaningless, contrived and absurd building to write a similarly meaningless and contrived article. Oblivious to this, she is pushes herself even further into the void of meaninglessness, contrivance and absurdity. The capitalist pigs score yet another goal against Kate, her thoughts enslaved within the confines of The Vessel.
- pesmhey 8y ago
  Exactly.
- viivaux 8y ago
  See that would all make sense if there weren't an alternative - non classist, non ugly, aesthetic and thoughtful artchitecture out there as an alternative; one explicitly referred to itfa. But you and pesmhey feel the need to ignore that part so you can shove your inane babble into the authors mouth to criticise. Could you not?
  - 0db532a0 8y ago
    The thing that you and also Kate miss is that things like "classist", "ugly" and "aesthetic" are simply terms which define nothing objective and which reside in your head alone. You see a building and call it "classist", allowing the capitalist pigs to get your knickers in a twist once more. I see the same building, either call it "aesthetic" or "non-aesthetic" and move on.
    - viivaux 8y ago
      Sure, I get it. Kinda like how I'm gonna call this conversation "with a moron", and move on.
quickthrower2 8y ago
“Fuck the vessel” can be taken more than one way. But that aside, I think is is great to have something weird in a city you can go visit. Something unusual that isn’t a business or a residence or a road. I think people stuck in a city all the time are missing out on nature, but something like the Vessel is an opportubity to escape and do something pointless for a few minutes.
- logifail 8y ago
  > I think is is great to have something weird in a city you can go visit. Something unusual that isn’t a business or a residence or a road In my experience of walking around cities I visit, you find this kind of thing just as soon as you stop(!) following your tourist map and/or blog post listing "20 best things to see in Florence/London/Paris/Berlin/$wherever". "Weird" things are - and have always been - there just waiting to be found. We really don't need Heatherwick to build them.
  - quickthrower2 8y ago
    I agree. I used to follow the “Lonely Planet” guides but now I’d rather plan as little as possible. You’ll bump into people to recommend stuff. There are exceptions e.g. long hikes need some planning.
- richk449 8y ago
  Taleb in Antifragile makes almost the exact opposite point - that you should be flaneur, rather than a tourist. A flaneur enjoys viewing and being part of the natural rhythms of the city, whereas the tourist just goes to the showpieces with the other tourists. While I'm not convinced by Taleb in general, I think he gets this point right.
- milquetoastaf 8y ago
  It's a selfie station in the middle of a giant mall that is in a neighborhood of empty high rises in one of the busiest most touristy part of the city. It's not an opportunity to escape.
Zigurd 8y ago
It's a shawarma. Try to unsee.
- partisan 8y ago
  Saw the pine cone, but I don’t see the shawarma.
slyall 8y ago
The work reminds me of this young adult Sci-Fi story I read when I was a kid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stairs_(Sleator_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stairs_(Sleator_novel...
crazygringo 8y ago
I mean, I'm not a big fan of Hudson Yards... ...but this piece doesn't seem to make any coherent argument. Nowhere does she explain why she dislikes it aesthetically. She simply seems to dislike that it was designed to be Instagrammable (is that so bad for art/sculpture which is inherently visual?), has some bizarre thoughts on climbing staircases (she's against climbing the Eiffel Tower as well, does she hate exercise?) and using elevators, and was unhappy with an attempted policy on photo usage that has now been changed. Feels like fake outrage to me.
- notyourday 8y ago
  This seems like a good response: https://nypost.com/2019/03/23/the-architecture-snobs-got-hudson-yards-all-wrong/ https://nypost.com/2019/03/23/the-architecture-snobs-got-hud...
  - SiempreViernes 8y ago
    Ha! He doesn't even use an actual picture of the finished thing, such is the depth of his interest in the subject. And four days after opening is a rather short time to wait before declaring "mission accomplished" on something that is supposed to endure.
    - notyourday 8y ago
      Photos of the Vessel are all over NY Post, Gothamist, etc.
- icebraining 8y ago
  > Nowhere does she explain why she dislikes it aesthetically. That's because her criticism does not seem to be primarily aesthetic. There's more to architecture than aesthetics.
- CptFribble 8y ago
  (one of) the other layers is that its only purpose is to inflate real estate values of luxury apartments that already were built only to be sold to the criminally-wealthy international investor class that uses luxury US real estate as a form of international banking/money laundering, while masquerading in the press as a "community" and the Vessel itself as a "public space," when in reality it is anything but. The comparison to the Eiffel Tower is to say at least that structure has a restaurant and a shop at the top, so there's a reason to go up there. The author does not seem to have special hate for elevators, only that an elevator for a sixteen-floor staircase that doesn't actually have anything at the top further reinforces the cynicism behind the design, which is in fact the major thrust of the article.
pesmhey 8y ago
Classism works both ways. I can’t fucking stand poor people who have nothing more to hate on rich people about than that they have money. And the converse is true, rich people who think poverty is some moral failing. This article is riddled with, fuck people who have more than me. Ugh, get the fuck over yourself, no matter what social position you may have happened to find yourself in. Not ‘Fuck The Vessel’ just ‘Fuck You’.
- scandox 8y ago
  > no matter what social position you may have happened to find yourself in People don't "find themselves" in a social position. It isn't like they wandered into the wrong part of town. People suffering poverty are angry about wealth because it represents something withheld from them by an opaque and unfair system (how opaque and how unfair is the only thing under debate). Rich people who think poverty is a moral failing are afraid of losing what they have and in need of a feeling of intrinsic superiority because their greatest anxiety is that they don't deserve what they have.
  - presscast 8y ago
    I'm not sure how this contradicts, or even has anything to do with the parent post. It seems like you're reading excessively far into a turn-of-phrase.
    - scandox 8y ago
      That turn of phrase is the key indicator in the original comment. It means they think of poverty and wealth as unrelated phenomena. Generally it is our most casual statements that say the most about our underlying assumptions.
      - harimau777 8y ago
        I don't think it's fair to assume the worst interpretation of what someone says.
    - 8y ago
sigmaprimus 8y ago
Personally, I like the look of it and the idea of walking around it whilst taking pictures. I can appreciate the argument that it may descriminate against people with disabilities due to lack of elevators (if that is true). To be fair I also think it looks somewhat shwarmaish, but really what is wrong with that? After all its in the "Big Apple"!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
booleandilemma 8y ago
Well, at least it's better than Metronome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome_(public_artwork) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome_(public_artwork)
leftyted 8y ago
It's not that I think this building (or attraction or whatever) is beautiful and worthwhile. It's just that I don't care that much and I'm a bit skeptical of people who do. I don't think it would matter what kind of sculpture/attraction/landmark/etc was built here -- people would still be criticizing it because there are a lot of people who pour derision onto everything the ultra-rich do. It's like a hobby. I think the two main motivators of this behavior are 1. jealousy and 2. a way for middle class people to distract themselves from the emptiness of their own lives: "Look at those rich people, their lives are so empty! They are so tasteless and they don't understand what really matters." Little do they know that rich people are distracting themselves from the emptiness of their lives by building this kind of stuff in the first place. Me personally, I find it hard to criticize people who are building things. I wonder what the thousands of people who built these buildings think of them. I'm all ears if someone wants to make a serious case about what should have been built here instead and who should have paid for it. But this isn't that.
- icebraining 8y ago
  > I'm all ears if someone wants to make a serious case about what should have been built here instead and who should have paid for it. One of her main points is that this discussion should have been had before The Vessel was constructed. The article as a whole is more of a criticism of the whole system that spawned it than of the construction itself.
Siederwehen 8y ago
The article is hilariously wasteful with words as that thing is of land. Calling it a giant waste paper basket is wonderfully apt.
whack 8y ago
This article is a perfect encapsulation of our current culture of contempt. It is no longer sufficient, or even possible, to just disagree or have different tastes. "I'm personally not a big fan of that building's aesthetics, but maybe there are others who do like it." That would have been a reasonable opinion to hold... instead we have: "Designed by Thomas Heatherwick, one of architecture’s premier grifters... The depth of architectural thinking at work here makes a kiddie-pool seem oceanic" I hope to God I never have to work with someone like the author. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-polarization.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-...
- ilovecaching 8y ago
  I think you missed the crux of the argument which is that it’s very proletariat. It does nothing for the community and is designed to benifit the criminally wealthy. Also it’s ugly af. I hope I never have to work with someone with your tastes if you think that’s what beauty is.
  - jhbadger 8y ago
    To be fair, I'd say that that is is better than any of the 1960s-1990s "Brutalist" style stuff that reminds me of Communist-style nonsense. That being said, given that that the average inhabitant isn't working class but a professional, why? Aren't there better alternatives at your price level?
    - ilovecaching 8y ago
      Agreed. Brutalist also didn’t age well, partly because upkeep was poor. I’d expect the same of this pinecone.
    - fishnchips 8y ago
      Whatever can be said about the Soviet Bloc architecture, those projects were always either utilitarian or served some propaganda purpose, and a staircase to nowhere would be neither. That said, I dislike the tone of the article.
voldacar 8y ago
>It is a Vessel for the depths of architectural cynicism, of form without ideology and without substance: an architectural practice that puts the commodifiable image above all else, including the social good, aesthetic expression, and meaningful public space or maybe it's just some staircases
- milquetoastaf 8y ago
  Yep. That's all it is. Just some staircases. Cost a couple million dollars and was endlessly hyped by the city and architectural press. Just some staircases - nothing more. Why write articles about it? It's just staircases! It's not related to any issues at all with the city - just some staircases that showed up one day!
milemi 8y ago
I've never seen it called "a receptacle for Godzilla's egg", so I thought I'd contribute that here.
camdenlock 8y ago
The phrase "criminally wealthy" used by the author is a dog whistle for class supremacy, a destructive ideology that we need to be talking about a lot more. It's about as helpful an ideology as white supremacy, just with different variables: instead of wanting to destroy other people along racial boundaries, the class supremacist wants to destroy people who aren't members of the sanctioned economic class. Fuck class supremacy. Let's collectively ignore this kind of hateful screed so we can focus on reducing suffering for all, not just for members of some arbitrary group.
csomar 8y ago
NYC has failed to cultivate and maintain public spaces. Its' parks sucks, its subway is dirty and old, it has tons of poor and homeless people. I'm certainly comparing to other cities (like London or HongKong) for its size and importance. Hong Kong has much nicer public spaces. This means the public go to these public spaces and people socialize. That's not possible in NYC. Because the city public shared space is a piece of junk. People avoid it and segregate in select clubs/bars/restaurant. That means they don't go alone but with friends. So NYC is very circle based. As the city public services gets shittier, the city becomes more like Paris and so are the people: Rude. The massive inflow of tourists doesn't help either. The article is just symptom: It just shows how frustrated Yankees are. The city needs more spaces like the Hudson Yards. Spaces that integrate with the subway. Enable easy transfer, offer nice sitting areas, and let people socialize.
dluan 8y ago
This article is a criticism of capital, which is what The Baffler does. The fact that comments here are pearl clutching over "tone" or "author's apparent empty life" is kind of amusing to watch. Partly because HN commenters and hackers would presumably agree with the article's criticism of something like IP-selfie ownership for the sole purpose of advertising and inflating value of nearby condos. But I think most folks here are triggered by the whiff of marxist tone. Hudson yards is a project by real estate developers targeting other speculators, so it's not as bad as say gentrifying incumbent locals, or it's not necessarily about the opportunity cost of having a green park there instead. It's just a fish-bowl example of how capital can work in its own world and feel so out of touch with the rest of the city. If you've ever walked around new CBD's in China in the 00's, you'd often find similar high rises flanked with empty luxury stores and it was just really obvious what the point of it was. Only there, there's no false pretense of high art or design, just money.
module0000 8y ago
>> Fuck the Vessel Or, the author could do something about it other than whine. Make an ADA case regarding the limited floors accessible by elevators for instance - that's a freebie.
acomjean 8y ago
I get all my NY news from the "gothamist" (I miss NY snark sometimes). They've had good "Vessel" coverage: Including that the name might change: And the controversy over who owns the images you take of the sculpture (or whatever it is). http://gothamist.com/2019/03/21/vessel_name.php http://gothamist.com/2019/03/21/vessel_name.php http://gothamist.com/tags/vessel http://gothamist.com/tags/vessel also somewhat relevant: http://gothamist.com/2019/03/22/native_new_yorkers_complain.php http://gothamist.com/2019/03/22/native_new_yorkers_complain....
cwp 8y ago
I can't make heads or tails of this. The author clearly has an ax to grind, that much is clear. But since she dislikes—no, hates—everything about this project, it's kinda hard to tell what the actual issue is. It feels tribal. This thing is associated with a group I hate, so it's ugly, shallow, stupid, pointless, corrupt, and in every way unclean. Yeesh.

111 points by portobello 8y ago

"We were on assignment. We were supposed to kill 2 birds with one stone. Destroy a piece of corporate art... Operation Latte Thunder, go. and trash a franchise coffee bar." Let's hope they put a starbucks in the thing.

stickfigure 8y ago

Everyone's a fucking critic.

astazangasta 8y ago
I mean, hopefully.
asgdionionio 8y ago
The author is an architecture critic.
icebraining 8y ago
Well, her criticism was deemed worthy of inclusion in the US Library of Congress.
- wallacoloo 8y ago
  Yes, and so is My Little Pony fanfiction in the library of congress [1]. It's not exactly a very exclusive library, nor does the criteria for getting media into their catalog have anything to do with the subjective quality or meaningfulness of the piece. [1] https://lccn.loc.gov/2016963536 https://lccn.loc.gov/2016963536

yathern 8y ago

I visited Hudson Yards and the Vessel on the opening day. I don't find the Vessel itself to be as architecturally offensive as others, I think it's a fine idea. A seven story mall, however, is a preposterous idea. In a day and age when malls are dying. Especially in a city! Malls were made to emulate city centers, and Manhattan already is great to wander around. The whole experience is just so very clearly synthetic. There's no unifying theme or feel, other than that of "we spent a whole lot of money making this place, it can't fail". I imagine I'll continue to see lots of marketing about it over the next 10 years, desperately trying to make it a tourist attraction. Maybe they'll succeed.

whistlerbrk 8y ago
I work at WTC and this is exactly how I feel about the area under the Oculus connecting the Brookfield Mall. It's like a scene out of Gattaca, a massive dizzyling underground mall/complex with no natural light filled with luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at. Everyone walks through in a daze, seemingly impressed by the magnitude of the cavern but at the same I can't help to think they feel as equally empty and drained by it as me. Developments like Hudson Yards seem to be cargo culturing culture. If we build a public arts space, offices, restaurants, shops, and a playground then surely people will arrive, right?! Feels very weird.
- walterbell 8y ago
  > luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at 3D walk-in billboards.
  - caprese 8y ago
    Exactly, I think of them as exhibits. I've looked at brick and mortar as museums for a long time and I'm not the only one. My wonderment and praise for the gallery curator shattered by the clerk trying to upsell me on a store credit card or data mining loyalty program. "Why are you talking?" Must be the quizzical expression my face makes as I take slightly too long to reply. For actually purchasing something going into a retail store is basically a game of "how is the sales person going to lie to me today". It should come with a laugh track streamed live on twitch.
- crazygringo 8y ago
  > with no natural light I mean, I agree with you a lot, but the Oculus itself is tons of natural light, it's all soaring windows: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZQvDMR-aOZc/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZQvDMR-aOZc/maxresdefault.jpg The above-ground Oculus structure is beautiful and inspiring in a way little architecture in that part of the city is.
- atombender 8y ago
  > filled with luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at This [1] Reddit thread from the other day was interesting reading. Those empty luxury shops are definitely to a large extent ads for high-end companies who just want to have a New York presence. Same thing on 5th avenue and in airports. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskNYC/comments/b2n7y6/people_that_work_retail_at_the_oculus/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskNYC/comments/b2n7y6/people_that_...

walterbell 8y ago

From https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/hudson-yards-is-the-hotel-california-of-new-york https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/hudson-ya... > Hudson Yards is a private space masquerading as a public one ... In reality it is an enclave, a high-end corporate park buoyed by six billion dollars in tax breaks—an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon for its scuttled Queens headquarters—and designed as a kind of amenity-stuffed Hotel California that its residents never have to leave ... The only thing that Hudson Yards is missing is its own weather ... what Hudson Yards really feels like is a nice airport terminal, with the High Line as its moving walkway"

caprese 8y ago
> an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon one thing I really love about NYC is how easy it is to deflect attention and get what you want exhibit A: "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead, serving to highlight the fickle nature of an unorganized protest where the cause/perpetuator of inequality is so easily interchangeable to whoever is the richest. Granted, these cities don't really know much about each other's struggles, so you see a lot of the same arguments rehashed and evolve in different ways ie: Austin recently dealt with a cultural appropriation uproar over a "Bodega", and not cultural appropriation from NYC lol, its just whoever is the loudest. exhibit B: Walmart is practically banned from NYC in an effort to save/protect local businesses, while every major, minor, and luxury retailer enjoys larger than life flagship versions of their stores positioned in space constrained Manhattan. exhibit C: The way tax breaks are made relevant news at all. Hudson Yards isn't the only place getting it.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  Hudson Yards is way more than a standard tax break bonanza. Tax-free City and state authority bonds were issued to finance it. The Amazon deal was all about NYS politics and the changes in leadership in the state legislature.
  - 8y ago

dwighttk 8y ago

If you take a selfie on top of The Vessel while drinking from your Vessyl do you unlock an easter egg?

Nelkins 8y ago

Well at the very least one thing it has in common with the Eiffel Tower is that both were initially met with universal derision. The Eiffel Tower is now one of the most iconic and beloved landmarks in Paris...time will tell if the "Vessel" gets the same treatment.

SiempreViernes 8y ago
The things met by universal derision then kept that reputation is by far the larger set. Additionally, the Eiffel tower mostly drew criticism during its construction[0], not once it was finished. If the vessel could muster the "it's not finished" defence, then that would probably settle people down. It does look like a cool start on something impressive, but the vacuousness that Wagner objects to shows: the thing looks unfinished, a cool 3d printed prototype you made to look at and then put on a shelf after 10 minutes. Frankly the pictures form the actual construction were more impressive than the finished things, just because before completion you could always try to imagine it completed as something more. [0]: https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2015/1120/How-the-Eiffel-Tower-outlasted-its-critics https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2015/1120/...

0db532a0 8y ago

TLDR: The author has still to come to terms with the meaninglessness, contrivance and absurdity of her own life and of everything around her, and has been pushed by a meaningless, contrived and absurd building to write a similarly meaningless and contrived article. Oblivious to this, she is pushes herself even further into the void of meaninglessness, contrivance and absurdity. The capitalist pigs score yet another goal against Kate, her thoughts enslaved within the confines of The Vessel.

pesmhey 8y ago
Exactly.
viivaux 8y ago
See that would all make sense if there weren't an alternative - non classist, non ugly, aesthetic and thoughtful artchitecture out there as an alternative; one explicitly referred to itfa. But you and pesmhey feel the need to ignore that part so you can shove your inane babble into the authors mouth to criticise. Could you not?
- 0db532a0 8y ago
  The thing that you and also Kate miss is that things like "classist", "ugly" and "aesthetic" are simply terms which define nothing objective and which reside in your head alone. You see a building and call it "classist", allowing the capitalist pigs to get your knickers in a twist once more. I see the same building, either call it "aesthetic" or "non-aesthetic" and move on.
  - viivaux 8y ago
    Sure, I get it. Kinda like how I'm gonna call this conversation "with a moron", and move on.

quickthrower2 8y ago

“Fuck the vessel” can be taken more than one way. But that aside, I think is is great to have something weird in a city you can go visit. Something unusual that isn’t a business or a residence or a road. I think people stuck in a city all the time are missing out on nature, but something like the Vessel is an opportubity to escape and do something pointless for a few minutes.

logifail 8y ago
> I think is is great to have something weird in a city you can go visit. Something unusual that isn’t a business or a residence or a road In my experience of walking around cities I visit, you find this kind of thing just as soon as you stop(!) following your tourist map and/or blog post listing "20 best things to see in Florence/London/Paris/Berlin/$wherever". "Weird" things are - and have always been - there just waiting to be found. We really don't need Heatherwick to build them.
- quickthrower2 8y ago
  I agree. I used to follow the “Lonely Planet” guides but now I’d rather plan as little as possible. You’ll bump into people to recommend stuff. There are exceptions e.g. long hikes need some planning.
richk449 8y ago
Taleb in Antifragile makes almost the exact opposite point - that you should be flaneur, rather than a tourist. A flaneur enjoys viewing and being part of the natural rhythms of the city, whereas the tourist just goes to the showpieces with the other tourists. While I'm not convinced by Taleb in general, I think he gets this point right.
milquetoastaf 8y ago
It's a selfie station in the middle of a giant mall that is in a neighborhood of empty high rises in one of the busiest most touristy part of the city. It's not an opportunity to escape.

Zigurd 8y ago

It's a shawarma. Try to unsee.

partisan 8y ago
Saw the pine cone, but I don’t see the shawarma.

slyall 8y ago

The work reminds me of this young adult Sci-Fi story I read when I was a kid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stairs_(Sleator_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stairs_(Sleator_novel...

crazygringo 8y ago

I mean, I'm not a big fan of Hudson Yards... ...but this piece doesn't seem to make any coherent argument. Nowhere does she explain why she dislikes it aesthetically. She simply seems to dislike that it was designed to be Instagrammable (is that so bad for art/sculpture which is inherently visual?), has some bizarre thoughts on climbing staircases (she's against climbing the Eiffel Tower as well, does she hate exercise?) and using elevators, and was unhappy with an attempted policy on photo usage that has now been changed. Feels like fake outrage to me.

notyourday 8y ago
This seems like a good response: https://nypost.com/2019/03/23/the-architecture-snobs-got-hudson-yards-all-wrong/ https://nypost.com/2019/03/23/the-architecture-snobs-got-hud...
- SiempreViernes 8y ago
  Ha! He doesn't even use an actual picture of the finished thing, such is the depth of his interest in the subject. And four days after opening is a rather short time to wait before declaring "mission accomplished" on something that is supposed to endure.
  - notyourday 8y ago
    Photos of the Vessel are all over NY Post, Gothamist, etc.
icebraining 8y ago
> Nowhere does she explain why she dislikes it aesthetically. That's because her criticism does not seem to be primarily aesthetic. There's more to architecture than aesthetics.
CptFribble 8y ago
(one of) the other layers is that its only purpose is to inflate real estate values of luxury apartments that already were built only to be sold to the criminally-wealthy international investor class that uses luxury US real estate as a form of international banking/money laundering, while masquerading in the press as a "community" and the Vessel itself as a "public space," when in reality it is anything but. The comparison to the Eiffel Tower is to say at least that structure has a restaurant and a shop at the top, so there's a reason to go up there. The author does not seem to have special hate for elevators, only that an elevator for a sixteen-floor staircase that doesn't actually have anything at the top further reinforces the cynicism behind the design, which is in fact the major thrust of the article.

pesmhey 8y ago

Classism works both ways. I can’t fucking stand poor people who have nothing more to hate on rich people about than that they have money. And the converse is true, rich people who think poverty is some moral failing. This article is riddled with, fuck people who have more than me. Ugh, get the fuck over yourself, no matter what social position you may have happened to find yourself in. Not ‘Fuck The Vessel’ just ‘Fuck You’.

scandox 8y ago
> no matter what social position you may have happened to find yourself in People don't "find themselves" in a social position. It isn't like they wandered into the wrong part of town. People suffering poverty are angry about wealth because it represents something withheld from them by an opaque and unfair system (how opaque and how unfair is the only thing under debate). Rich people who think poverty is a moral failing are afraid of losing what they have and in need of a feeling of intrinsic superiority because their greatest anxiety is that they don't deserve what they have.
- presscast 8y ago
  I'm not sure how this contradicts, or even has anything to do with the parent post. It seems like you're reading excessively far into a turn-of-phrase.
  - scandox 8y ago
    That turn of phrase is the key indicator in the original comment. It means they think of poverty and wealth as unrelated phenomena. Generally it is our most casual statements that say the most about our underlying assumptions.
    - harimau777 8y ago
      I don't think it's fair to assume the worst interpretation of what someone says.
  - 8y ago

sigmaprimus 8y ago

Personally, I like the look of it and the idea of walking around it whilst taking pictures. I can appreciate the argument that it may descriminate against people with disabilities due to lack of elevators (if that is true). To be fair I also think it looks somewhat shwarmaish, but really what is wrong with that? After all its in the "Big Apple"!

deleted 8y ago
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booleandilemma 8y ago

Well, at least it's better than Metronome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome_(public_artwork) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome_(public_artwork)

leftyted 8y ago

It's not that I think this building (or attraction or whatever) is beautiful and worthwhile. It's just that I don't care that much and I'm a bit skeptical of people who do. I don't think it would matter what kind of sculpture/attraction/landmark/etc was built here -- people would still be criticizing it because there are a lot of people who pour derision onto everything the ultra-rich do. It's like a hobby. I think the two main motivators of this behavior are 1. jealousy and 2. a way for middle class people to distract themselves from the emptiness of their own lives: "Look at those rich people, their lives are so empty! They are so tasteless and they don't understand what really matters." Little do they know that rich people are distracting themselves from the emptiness of their lives by building this kind of stuff in the first place. Me personally, I find it hard to criticize people who are building things. I wonder what the thousands of people who built these buildings think of them. I'm all ears if someone wants to make a serious case about what should have been built here instead and who should have paid for it. But this isn't that.

icebraining 8y ago
> I'm all ears if someone wants to make a serious case about what should have been built here instead and who should have paid for it. One of her main points is that this discussion should have been had before The Vessel was constructed. The article as a whole is more of a criticism of the whole system that spawned it than of the construction itself.

Siederwehen 8y ago

The article is hilariously wasteful with words as that thing is of land. Calling it a giant waste paper basket is wonderfully apt.

whack 8y ago

This article is a perfect encapsulation of our current culture of contempt. It is no longer sufficient, or even possible, to just disagree or have different tastes. "I'm personally not a big fan of that building's aesthetics, but maybe there are others who do like it." That would have been a reasonable opinion to hold... instead we have: "Designed by Thomas Heatherwick, one of architecture’s premier grifters... The depth of architectural thinking at work here makes a kiddie-pool seem oceanic" I hope to God I never have to work with someone like the author. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-polarization.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-...

ilovecaching 8y ago
I think you missed the crux of the argument which is that it’s very proletariat. It does nothing for the community and is designed to benifit the criminally wealthy. Also it’s ugly af. I hope I never have to work with someone with your tastes if you think that’s what beauty is.
- jhbadger 8y ago
  To be fair, I'd say that that is is better than any of the 1960s-1990s "Brutalist" style stuff that reminds me of Communist-style nonsense. That being said, given that that the average inhabitant isn't working class but a professional, why? Aren't there better alternatives at your price level?
  - ilovecaching 8y ago
    Agreed. Brutalist also didn’t age well, partly because upkeep was poor. I’d expect the same of this pinecone.
  - fishnchips 8y ago
    Whatever can be said about the Soviet Bloc architecture, those projects were always either utilitarian or served some propaganda purpose, and a staircase to nowhere would be neither. That said, I dislike the tone of the article.

voldacar 8y ago

>It is a Vessel for the depths of architectural cynicism, of form without ideology and without substance: an architectural practice that puts the commodifiable image above all else, including the social good, aesthetic expression, and meaningful public space or maybe it's just some staircases

milquetoastaf 8y ago
Yep. That's all it is. Just some staircases. Cost a couple million dollars and was endlessly hyped by the city and architectural press. Just some staircases - nothing more. Why write articles about it? It's just staircases! It's not related to any issues at all with the city - just some staircases that showed up one day!

milemi 8y ago

I've never seen it called "a receptacle for Godzilla's egg", so I thought I'd contribute that here.

camdenlock 8y ago

The phrase "criminally wealthy" used by the author is a dog whistle for class supremacy, a destructive ideology that we need to be talking about a lot more. It's about as helpful an ideology as white supremacy, just with different variables: instead of wanting to destroy other people along racial boundaries, the class supremacist wants to destroy people who aren't members of the sanctioned economic class. Fuck class supremacy. Let's collectively ignore this kind of hateful screed so we can focus on reducing suffering for all, not just for members of some arbitrary group.

csomar 8y ago

NYC has failed to cultivate and maintain public spaces. Its' parks sucks, its subway is dirty and old, it has tons of poor and homeless people. I'm certainly comparing to other cities (like London or HongKong) for its size and importance. Hong Kong has much nicer public spaces. This means the public go to these public spaces and people socialize. That's not possible in NYC. Because the city public shared space is a piece of junk. People avoid it and segregate in select clubs/bars/restaurant. That means they don't go alone but with friends. So NYC is very circle based. As the city public services gets shittier, the city becomes more like Paris and so are the people: Rude. The massive inflow of tourists doesn't help either. The article is just symptom: It just shows how frustrated Yankees are. The city needs more spaces like the Hudson Yards. Spaces that integrate with the subway. Enable easy transfer, offer nice sitting areas, and let people socialize.

dluan 8y ago

This article is a criticism of capital, which is what The Baffler does. The fact that comments here are pearl clutching over "tone" or "author's apparent empty life" is kind of amusing to watch. Partly because HN commenters and hackers would presumably agree with the article's criticism of something like IP-selfie ownership for the sole purpose of advertising and inflating value of nearby condos. But I think most folks here are triggered by the whiff of marxist tone. Hudson yards is a project by real estate developers targeting other speculators, so it's not as bad as say gentrifying incumbent locals, or it's not necessarily about the opportunity cost of having a green park there instead. It's just a fish-bowl example of how capital can work in its own world and feel so out of touch with the rest of the city. If you've ever walked around new CBD's in China in the 00's, you'd often find similar high rises flanked with empty luxury stores and it was just really obvious what the point of it was. Only there, there's no false pretense of high art or design, just money.

module0000 8y ago

>> Fuck the Vessel Or, the author could do something about it other than whine. Make an ADA case regarding the limited floors accessible by elevators for instance - that's a freebie.

acomjean 8y ago

I get all my NY news from the "gothamist" (I miss NY snark sometimes). They've had good "Vessel" coverage: Including that the name might change: And the controversy over who owns the images you take of the sculpture (or whatever it is). http://gothamist.com/2019/03/21/vessel_name.php http://gothamist.com/2019/03/21/vessel_name.php http://gothamist.com/tags/vessel http://gothamist.com/tags/vessel also somewhat relevant: http://gothamist.com/2019/03/22/native_new_yorkers_complain.php http://gothamist.com/2019/03/22/native_new_yorkers_complain....

cwp 8y ago

I can't make heads or tails of this. The author clearly has an ax to grind, that much is clear. But since she dislikes—no, hates—everything about this project, it's kinda hard to tell what the actual issue is. It feels tribal. This thing is associated with a group I hate, so it's ugly, shallow, stupid, pointless, corrupt, and in every way unclean. Yeesh.