9 ms·

European here. My next car will be electric, likely a Tesla. The dieselgate is the reason why I'm not even considering Volkswagen's upcoming 'ID' family of elec

by Yaggo 8y ago

European here. My next car will be electric, likely a Tesla. The dieselgate is the reason why I'm not even considering Volkswagen's upcoming 'ID' family of electric cars. I've similar feeling about the whole traditional auto industry.

gcb0 8y ago
better buy from a car company founded by a money launderer who is currently lying on tweeter to manipulate stock prices illegally and fighting hard to keep under wraps the auto pilot killer bugs. any reason why you are not buying from the dozen asian manufacturers that are not involved in either shenanigans if you base your purchases solely on moral grounds?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dpau 8y ago
  you mean like zoox or xiaopeng? https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2019/03/21/tesla-sues-former-employees-zoox-for-alleged-trade-secret-theft/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2019/03/21/tesla...
adrianN 8y ago
Unfortunately you seem to be in the minority. People are still happily buying VW.
- 3o4xkp 8y ago
  I don't care about whether things are "ecologically sound" or not. I know the earth is important and blah blah, but I have bigger fish to fry every day. I'm sure most people feel like that.
- semi-extrinsic 8y ago
  Why "unfortunately"? Would it be better if every company that does a bad thing was forced to just close shop? If that be the case I'm pretty sure we'll have to shut down Tesla within a couple of years over their "Autopilot"/"Full Self Driving" claims.
  - akanet 8y ago
    "Do a bad thing" is a pretty major understatement of the degree of criminality we're talking about here. Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing that embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency.
    - xedeon 8y ago
      > embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency. Cite this claim.
      - UncleEntity 8y ago
        > Cite this claim. It is, literally, a large portion of TFA.
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      If you excluded every manufacturer that did this at some point, you're pretty much only left with Tesla and probably some other smaller new EV companies.
      - hndamien 8y ago
        This speaks volumes.
        blattimwind 8y ago
        ... and I wouldn't be all that sure that none of the EV folks aren't cheating on their range tests ...
    - natch 8y ago
      >Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing Citation needed. They didn’t do that.
    - freeflight 8y ago
justasimpleman 8y ago
My next car will be "no car at all". Even electric cars have huge externalities that you do not pay for, but your children, namely, the disposal of the batteries, pollution created by the manufacturing, costly extraction of rare earths etc. Instead we should heavily invest in high-speed trains.
- lb1lf 8y ago
  High-speed trains are wonderful where the population density is sufficiently high, but in more sparsely populated parts, the car (and, for longer distances, the plane) is likely the only viable solution for decades to come. With that as a starting point, the cars and planes might as well be electric. (Or hydrogen powered!)
  - fulafel 8y ago
    I think this reasoning pins down the wrong variables of the equation. You can pick your housing and location based on not owning a car (among other criteria). And it scales too. And for decision-makers it's responsible to nudge your citizenship to this direction.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Assuming one can get a house at an affordable rate to start with. It doesn't scale because not everyone is rich enough to live close to transportation hubs nor they can take everyone that wants to live nearby.
      - fulafel 8y ago
        Housing supply and transport infra mostly responds to demand without pricing out people. Outside of urban hotspots where rent seeking rules. Most cities, and most people's home vicinities, are not land cramped like the world's megacities.
        pjmlp 8y ago
_ph_ 8y ago
My next car will be electric too, but I won't exclude VW entirely. They did the most obvious cheating, but basically all Diesel cars would use some schemes to pass the exhaust tests. Their ID line seems to be a genuine attempt at going full electric. I would of course triple-check any claims about their cars going forward.
jordanbeiber 8y ago
I drove a VW passat (bio/ngt gas hybrid) for years. This stuff pissed me of so much that together with the Exxon stuff I will never own a VW or a fossil ICE car ever again. I went for the Leaf as I can fit a double buggy in the trunk and it has a good enough range. Not cheap but it’s what I can do as a consumer in this liberal market economy. Good job, greedy bastards! :) Side note - using an EV have given me for the third time kind of an technology epiphany experience: 1. Internet 2. The first iphone 3. Now, the EV Charging in the garage over night, never visting a gas station other than for coffe on the road. It’s awesome! What’s so incredibly convenient is that the grid is built out already, i.e the infrastructure is in place, and has been for decades. Imagine someone suggesting we haul this toxic and highly flammable stuff called “gasoline” around the world to “stations”... what a ludicrous idea! I see parallells to music and media distribution and the internet.
- zafka 8y ago
  This whole imbroglio was a painful learning experience for me. For several years before I bought my used jetta TDI, I started looking into Bio Diesel. I still have 12 Jatropha Curcas trees in my back yard, which were to be the start of a possible startup. I am greatful for the learning experience, but I keep waiting for the wisdom that is supposed to make up a little for the aggravation of aging.
fulafel 8y ago
Teslas are still huge in mass (2000+ kg) and space/dimensions compared to what's needed from a car, and have a correspondingly big carbon footprint from building the thing and batteries. We should aim for 500 kg cars. We could do a 4 person 500 kg car in 1957 after all (Fiat 500).
- Someone1234 8y ago
  > We should aim for 500 kg cars. So you want a Tesla without batteries? A single battery cell weights approx. 200 lbs (90 kg). The Model 3 has four. The total weight of the batteries is thought to exceed 1000 lbs (inc. housing, harnesses) or about 500 kg. Then add on all the legally mandated safety technology a vehicle from 1957 wouldn't have (front airbags, seat belts, windshield defroster/washer, taller seats, and much higher crash absorption/roll support). You could absolutely build a 500 kg kit-car that has 1957 safety. But no commercial vendor can sell you a vehicle even in that ballpark.
  - davidzweig 8y ago
    There would be less need for safety technology if everyone was driving around at 60kph, not 100kph. A lighter battery would last much further.. lower cost vehicles.. less environmental impact.. less noise around populated areas etc. It would take longer to cover long distances, but.. smell the roses, or take a train? Pipe dream obviously.
    - freeflight 8y ago
      > There would be less need for safety technology if everyone was driving around at 60kph, not 100kph. That's like saying you don't need to wear a helmet while bicycling as long as you don't go faster than X. When in reality just falling over while standing still, can already give you quite a good knock on your head, depending on where you are landing with it. Just like you can't control the speed of other traffic participants. Even if you lowered the allowed speeds across the board, people would still end up speeding, probably even more so than they are doing already. In that context safety features should never be "optional extras" [0] because they usually are not "trade-offs" but straight up improvements. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-fe...

by Yaggo 8y ago

gcb0 8y ago

better buy from a car company founded by a money launderer who is currently lying on tweeter to manipulate stock prices illegally and fighting hard to keep under wraps the auto pilot killer bugs. any reason why you are not buying from the dozen asian manufacturers that are not involved in either shenanigans if you base your purchases solely on moral grounds?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dpau 8y ago
you mean like zoox or xiaopeng? https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2019/03/21/tesla-sues-former-employees-zoox-for-alleged-trade-secret-theft/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2019/03/21/tesla...

adrianN 8y ago

Unfortunately you seem to be in the minority. People are still happily buying VW.

3o4xkp 8y ago
I don't care about whether things are "ecologically sound" or not. I know the earth is important and blah blah, but I have bigger fish to fry every day. I'm sure most people feel like that.
semi-extrinsic 8y ago
Why "unfortunately"? Would it be better if every company that does a bad thing was forced to just close shop? If that be the case I'm pretty sure we'll have to shut down Tesla within a couple of years over their "Autopilot"/"Full Self Driving" claims.
- akanet 8y ago
  "Do a bad thing" is a pretty major understatement of the degree of criminality we're talking about here. Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing that embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency.
  - xedeon 8y ago
    > embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency. Cite this claim.
    - UncleEntity 8y ago
      > Cite this claim. It is, literally, a large portion of TFA.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    If you excluded every manufacturer that did this at some point, you're pretty much only left with Tesla and probably some other smaller new EV companies.
    - hndamien 8y ago
      This speaks volumes.
      - blattimwind 8y ago
        ... and I wouldn't be all that sure that none of the EV folks aren't cheating on their range tests ...
  - natch 8y ago
    >Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing Citation needed. They didn’t do that.
  - freeflight 8y ago

justasimpleman 8y ago

My next car will be "no car at all". Even electric cars have huge externalities that you do not pay for, but your children, namely, the disposal of the batteries, pollution created by the manufacturing, costly extraction of rare earths etc. Instead we should heavily invest in high-speed trains.

lb1lf 8y ago
High-speed trains are wonderful where the population density is sufficiently high, but in more sparsely populated parts, the car (and, for longer distances, the plane) is likely the only viable solution for decades to come. With that as a starting point, the cars and planes might as well be electric. (Or hydrogen powered!)
- fulafel 8y ago
  I think this reasoning pins down the wrong variables of the equation. You can pick your housing and location based on not owning a car (among other criteria). And it scales too. And for decision-makers it's responsible to nudge your citizenship to this direction.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Assuming one can get a house at an affordable rate to start with. It doesn't scale because not everyone is rich enough to live close to transportation hubs nor they can take everyone that wants to live nearby.
    - fulafel 8y ago
      Housing supply and transport infra mostly responds to demand without pricing out people. Outside of urban hotspots where rent seeking rules. Most cities, and most people's home vicinities, are not land cramped like the world's megacities.
      - pjmlp 8y ago

_ph_ 8y ago

My next car will be electric too, but I won't exclude VW entirely. They did the most obvious cheating, but basically all Diesel cars would use some schemes to pass the exhaust tests. Their ID line seems to be a genuine attempt at going full electric. I would of course triple-check any claims about their cars going forward.

jordanbeiber 8y ago

I drove a VW passat (bio/ngt gas hybrid) for years. This stuff pissed me of so much that together with the Exxon stuff I will never own a VW or a fossil ICE car ever again. I went for the Leaf as I can fit a double buggy in the trunk and it has a good enough range. Not cheap but it’s what I can do as a consumer in this liberal market economy. Good job, greedy bastards! :) Side note - using an EV have given me for the third time kind of an technology epiphany experience: 1. Internet 2. The first iphone 3. Now, the EV Charging in the garage over night, never visting a gas station other than for coffe on the road. It’s awesome! What’s so incredibly convenient is that the grid is built out already, i.e the infrastructure is in place, and has been for decades. Imagine someone suggesting we haul this toxic and highly flammable stuff called “gasoline” around the world to “stations”... what a ludicrous idea! I see parallells to music and media distribution and the internet.

zafka 8y ago
This whole imbroglio was a painful learning experience for me. For several years before I bought my used jetta TDI, I started looking into Bio Diesel. I still have 12 Jatropha Curcas trees in my back yard, which were to be the start of a possible startup. I am greatful for the learning experience, but I keep waiting for the wisdom that is supposed to make up a little for the aggravation of aging.

fulafel 8y ago

Teslas are still huge in mass (2000+ kg) and space/dimensions compared to what's needed from a car, and have a correspondingly big carbon footprint from building the thing and batteries. We should aim for 500 kg cars. We could do a 4 person 500 kg car in 1957 after all (Fiat 500).

Someone1234 8y ago
> We should aim for 500 kg cars. So you want a Tesla without batteries? A single battery cell weights approx. 200 lbs (90 kg). The Model 3 has four. The total weight of the batteries is thought to exceed 1000 lbs (inc. housing, harnesses) or about 500 kg. Then add on all the legally mandated safety technology a vehicle from 1957 wouldn't have (front airbags, seat belts, windshield defroster/washer, taller seats, and much higher crash absorption/roll support). You could absolutely build a 500 kg kit-car that has 1957 safety. But no commercial vendor can sell you a vehicle even in that ballpark.
- davidzweig 8y ago
  There would be less need for safety technology if everyone was driving around at 60kph, not 100kph. A lighter battery would last much further.. lower cost vehicles.. less environmental impact.. less noise around populated areas etc. It would take longer to cover long distances, but.. smell the roses, or take a train? Pipe dream obviously.
  - freeflight 8y ago
    > There would be less need for safety technology if everyone was driving around at 60kph, not 100kph. That's like saying you don't need to wear a helmet while bicycling as long as you don't go faster than X. When in reality just falling over while standing still, can already give you quite a good knock on your head, depending on where you are landing with it. Just like you can't control the speed of other traffic participants. Even if you lowered the allowed speeds across the board, people would still end up speeding, probably even more so than they are doing already. In that context safety features should never be "optional extras" [0] because they usually are not "trade-offs" but straight up improvements. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-fe...