8 ms·

Key Polish Political Party Comes Out Against Article 13

192 points by DiabloD3 8y ago

wallace_f 8y ago
Is Article 13 a bit of a scary example of how easily governments can be corrupted against their people? I guess they didn't pay off the right Polish bureaucrats?
sytelus 8y ago
People in US perhaps have no idea what is Article 13. It basically says that websites which allow their users to share/upload copyrighted content are now liable resulting in fees to copyright owners. This is big deal in Europe right now although not many in US seems to have heard about it. Lot of European versions of websites are going "dark" in protest. The law is obviously lobbied by entertainment industry to target likes of YouTube, Pinterest, Instagram etc. However its sure sounds pretty dumb. Next time if I want to backrupt a website, I can just upload tons of copyrighted material there.
- llukas 8y ago
  Website would only be bankrupt unless it does absolutely nothing to verify content. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47239600 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47239600
  - WA 8y ago
    And what do you think can be done somewhat cheaply on every blog out there that has a comment function and allows someone to upload excerpts of Harry Potter? The bare minimum technical solution seems to be excessive. You need some kind of "Shazam for all the things", which can identify copyrighted material by having a small snippet. And for that you actually need a huge database with fingerprints or whatever of copyrighted material. Please let us know if you have a simple and cheap solution that every blog owner can implement (without high costs).
    - llukas 8y ago
      Article 13 will not let Amazon sell books that were pirated (ie. re-uploaded) and claim everything is fine. They do didn't wanted to fix it so now they will be forced to. For Joe blogger there is proportionality (https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Art_13_unofficial.pdf https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Art_13_unoff... - 4a). And if Joe blogger decides to open comment section then he should read it every so often. If not then this Harry Potter excerpt would be hard to find among spam overflowing comment section.
      - WA 8y ago
        So, merely deleting a comment is enough? But that’s what we had before. Aren’t you required to have some kind of upload filter so that copyrighted material never ends up in your comments in the first place?
        llukas 8y ago
        You are ignoring "proportionality" part and "not liable if" part. Yes EU regulators wouldn't be chasing small blogs just like they do not do it with GDPR regulations. Big boys like Amazon wouldn't be able to get away with this shit (ends up on HN regularly): https://www.extremetech.com/internet/268109-an-update-on-my-stolen-book-and-job-on-amazon https://www.extremetech.com/internet/268109-an-update-on-my-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/01/02/amazon-scams-on-the-rise-in-2017-as-fraudulent-sellers-run-amok-and-profit-big/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/01/02/amazon-s... Now you tell me how do you make Amazon and similar not to profit off scam? Ask them nicely? Doesn't work.
        ben_w 8y ago
        In debates like this, I tend to mention that UK law has prison time for commercial copyright infringement. Not being a lawyer, I have no idea how hard it is for a prosecutor to get that outcome. (So far as opinion, I would like copyright duration reduced to 7 years from publication, but suspect it is easier to make a human-level-creative AI then to change the law).
akerro 8y ago
>Article 11 is now 15 and Article 13 is now 17 for my fellow inter users from Europe and everywhere else on the planet. https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/b434e9/article_11_is_now_15_and_article_13_is_now_17_for/ https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/b434e9/article_11_i...
GlitchMr 8y ago
While I would like this to be the case, I don't trust Platforma Obywatelska after they said they would vote against EU Copyright Directive (https://twitter.com/platforma_org/status/1015184834623365120 https://twitter.com/platforma_org/status/1015184834623365120) and then everyone from Platforma Obywatelska voted for it.
xlii 8y ago
Oh how funny. Few months back when the previous voting took place all of their representatives were voting for article 13. Right now, due to forced coalition most of the current EU parlamentarists got rather bad starting places (giving them low election changes even in light of good voters support) and there were talk about switching parties already. Now, week later I find out they changed their mind and are going to protect European Internet after being so eager to push this law. Smart, not that surprising yet funny move nonetheless. Oh, and when approving it they were defending it very vocally. They didn’t pass it by ignorance. That’s for sure.
- matt4077 8y ago
  A less cynical interpretation would be that democracy is still working somewhat well, even in Poland.
  - deogeo 8y ago
    Perhaps - but how will they vote when the next copyright 'reform' (which always means more restrictive copyright) comes along, and there's less public scrutiny?
  - mamon 8y ago
    What's with this "even in Poland"? Democracy in Poland is as good as ever. Compared to previous government it is even an improvement.
    - walterstucco 8y ago
      In other words, it is as bad as ever...
    - matt4077 8y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/world/europe/poland-european-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/world/europe/poland-europ...
- ajuc 8y ago
  Not really. In the preliminary voting last year nobody from Poland voted for articles 13 and 11. Most were against and some abstained. I know because I was campaigning for that and sending them emails. In the next voting still most were against. There was no point at which more people from Poland voted for article 13 than against. https://i.redd.it/8437i584v0m11.png https://i.redd.it/8437i584v0m11.png In Poland internet freedom, software patents etc is a big issue since forever. See: https://thankpoland.info/ https://thankpoland.info/ Anti-ACTA protests started in Poland as well in 2011 and were a big thing, they happened in every city basically and the government had to go back from the deal, which then lead to reverting it on the EU-wide basis.
b0rsuk 8y ago
Speaking as someone who voted for Platforma once, these guys have no credibility today because they don't commit to any program and are fickle. They can't communicate what is that they're trying to do, what's their program, and have no internal consensus on any major subject. Their decisions are based on polls and what they think will get them votes. Polish parties are heavily leader-based and leaders push others around. Current leader of PO is a schemer and back room dealer with insincere smile, he knows how to stay afloat and prevent defeat but not how to win or inspire people.
- dexen 8y ago
  To expand on that: Back in 2012 when ACTA was on the agenda, there were numerous popular protests against it in Poland, mostly centered around young internet users. Donald Tusk, then-Prime Minister and chief of the Platforma party, reacted with "The government won't bow down to any blackmail"[1] and reaffirmed his intent to sign the ACTA. Thankfully a few days later he changed course and refused to sign it, as per the popular demand. [1] "Nie wyobrażam sobie, by polski rząd ustępował przed jakimkolwiek szantażem" - https://www.wprost.pl/technologie/343029/jutro-podpiszemy-acta.html https://www.wprost.pl/technologie/343029/jutro-podpiszemy-ac...
- dreen 8y ago
  Still prefer them to PiS
  - b0rsuk 8y ago
    The two parties are not very different. Remember they were in a ruling coalition once, and a few people moved from PO to PiS after PiS came to power. Poland has no true left wing party anymore, and there are more extreme right voters too. Something is stirring on the right. PiS and PO are different shades of centrist I think. Especially that what PiS does and what it says are two completely different things.
    - mamon 8y ago
      Funny that you say that, because in my opinion Poland lacks the true right wing party. All major parties are left wing, with their economical programs being slight variations of socialists wealth redistribution, and government regulation of pretty much every domain of life. PiS might pretend to be patriotic and conservative but they are following Marx teaching more than God ones in many areas.
speeq 8y ago
I hope that the Internet doesn't turn into various subnets like US-NET, EU-NET, CHINA-NET .. Article 13 is a worrying development.
jarym 8y ago
We need tougher laws to put these politicians behind bars if they’ve not acted in the best interests of its citizens.
- briandear 8y ago
  Supposedly you have elections?
  - b0rsuk 8y ago
    Poland is a pretty young democracy. There are no strong democratic institutions, there isn't much faith in them and people are quite doubtful. After partitions Poland spent a few hundreds years off the map, at the time when many social changes were talking place (at the start of industrial revolution). For a few centuries Poles no longer ruled themselves and there's no strong tradition of civilized debate. Don't get me started about "democracy of gentry", because the class composed at most 20% of society. So a vast majority had no say in what's going on. There's still admiration for strong figures like Putin, Piłsudski, Churchill, even Stalin. People who don't trust institutions are sympathetic towards autocrats and their displays of strength. The Polish law works in such a way that a party member can jump ship, join another party and still have a seat in parliament. Then if he's loyal enough they put him on a voting list (in many cases you vote on lists of people, not individuals).
    - V-2 8y ago
      > After partitions Poland spent a few hundreds years off the map Your being incorrect on such a basic historical fact is quite a red flag. > For a few centuries Poles no longer ruled themselves 1.23 of a century (1795-1918) is not "a few". Unless my 8 year old nephew is a few meters tall :) > and there's no strong tradition of civilized debate Yes and no. It's true that when Poland didn't exist as an independent state, much of the political debate was pushed underground - or abroad. On the other hand, this very political debate - at least among the intelligentsia - flourished nevertheless. A great many of Poland's finest political writers (such as Staszic, Ściegienny or the Stańczycy) were active in the 19th century. > Don't get me started about "democracy of gentry", because the class composed at most 20% of society. So a vast majority had no say in what's going on. "Don't get me started about Athenian democracy, they had slavery". That's blatant ahistoricism. Democracy of gentry predated the concept of nation in its modern sense. By the standards of the era, this political system was way ahead of its times. The gentry - or the citizens with political rights - accounted for no more than a few percent of the population elsewhere in Europe. And it Poland they weren't a closed caste, either; you could attain the status as well as lose it. There was some degree of social mobility. Poor gentry was pretty much indistinguishable from commoners in terms of affluence, and mixed marriages weren't anything out of the ordinary. Also note that Poland eg. granted voting rights to women as soon as it regained independence (1918). Quite a few democratic countries kept them waiting longer. It wasn't until 1944 in France or 1971 in Switzerland that roughly 50% of the population had no voting rights. > There's still admiration for strong figures like Putin, Piłsudski, Churchill, even Stalin. People who don't trust institutions are sympathetic towards autocrats and their displays of strength. I find it doubtful whether Churchill really counts as an autocrat. And would you care to substantiate your claim of "admiration" for Putin or Stalin? > The Polish law works in such a way that a party member can jump ship, join another party and still have a seat in parliament. That's the whole point of democracy. The mandate comes from the voters, not the party. If the voters feel cheated, they shouldn't elect the guy the next time.
idlewords 8y ago
The name of the party is misspelled in the article, it should be Platforma Obywatelska (Citizens' Platform), not Platformy. Every single time, goddammit.

192 points by DiabloD3 8y ago

Is Article 13 a bit of a scary example of how easily governments can be corrupted against their people? I guess they didn't pay off the right Polish bureaucrats?

sytelus 8y ago

People in US perhaps have no idea what is Article 13. It basically says that websites which allow their users to share/upload copyrighted content are now liable resulting in fees to copyright owners. This is big deal in Europe right now although not many in US seems to have heard about it. Lot of European versions of websites are going "dark" in protest. The law is obviously lobbied by entertainment industry to target likes of YouTube, Pinterest, Instagram etc. However its sure sounds pretty dumb. Next time if I want to backrupt a website, I can just upload tons of copyrighted material there.

llukas 8y ago
Website would only be bankrupt unless it does absolutely nothing to verify content. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47239600 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47239600
- WA 8y ago
  And what do you think can be done somewhat cheaply on every blog out there that has a comment function and allows someone to upload excerpts of Harry Potter? The bare minimum technical solution seems to be excessive. You need some kind of "Shazam for all the things", which can identify copyrighted material by having a small snippet. And for that you actually need a huge database with fingerprints or whatever of copyrighted material. Please let us know if you have a simple and cheap solution that every blog owner can implement (without high costs).
  - llukas 8y ago
    Article 13 will not let Amazon sell books that were pirated (ie. re-uploaded) and claim everything is fine. They do didn't wanted to fix it so now they will be forced to. For Joe blogger there is proportionality (https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Art_13_unofficial.pdf https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Art_13_unoff... - 4a). And if Joe blogger decides to open comment section then he should read it every so often. If not then this Harry Potter excerpt would be hard to find among spam overflowing comment section.
    - WA 8y ago
      So, merely deleting a comment is enough? But that’s what we had before. Aren’t you required to have some kind of upload filter so that copyrighted material never ends up in your comments in the first place?
      - llukas 8y ago
        You are ignoring "proportionality" part and "not liable if" part. Yes EU regulators wouldn't be chasing small blogs just like they do not do it with GDPR regulations. Big boys like Amazon wouldn't be able to get away with this shit (ends up on HN regularly): https://www.extremetech.com/internet/268109-an-update-on-my-stolen-book-and-job-on-amazon https://www.extremetech.com/internet/268109-an-update-on-my-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/01/02/amazon-scams-on-the-rise-in-2017-as-fraudulent-sellers-run-amok-and-profit-big/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/01/02/amazon-s... Now you tell me how do you make Amazon and similar not to profit off scam? Ask them nicely? Doesn't work.
        ben_w 8y ago
        In debates like this, I tend to mention that UK law has prison time for commercial copyright infringement. Not being a lawyer, I have no idea how hard it is for a prosecutor to get that outcome. (So far as opinion, I would like copyright duration reduced to 7 years from publication, but suspect it is easier to make a human-level-creative AI then to change the law).

akerro 8y ago

>Article 11 is now 15 and Article 13 is now 17 for my fellow inter users from Europe and everywhere else on the planet. https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/b434e9/article_11_is_now_15_and_article_13_is_now_17_for/ https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/b434e9/article_11_i...

GlitchMr 8y ago

While I would like this to be the case, I don't trust Platforma Obywatelska after they said they would vote against EU Copyright Directive (https://twitter.com/platforma_org/status/1015184834623365120 https://twitter.com/platforma_org/status/1015184834623365120) and then everyone from Platforma Obywatelska voted for it.

xlii 8y ago

Oh how funny. Few months back when the previous voting took place all of their representatives were voting for article 13. Right now, due to forced coalition most of the current EU parlamentarists got rather bad starting places (giving them low election changes even in light of good voters support) and there were talk about switching parties already. Now, week later I find out they changed their mind and are going to protect European Internet after being so eager to push this law. Smart, not that surprising yet funny move nonetheless. Oh, and when approving it they were defending it very vocally. They didn’t pass it by ignorance. That’s for sure.

matt4077 8y ago
A less cynical interpretation would be that democracy is still working somewhat well, even in Poland.
- deogeo 8y ago
  Perhaps - but how will they vote when the next copyright 'reform' (which always means more restrictive copyright) comes along, and there's less public scrutiny?
- mamon 8y ago
  What's with this "even in Poland"? Democracy in Poland is as good as ever. Compared to previous government it is even an improvement.
  - walterstucco 8y ago
    In other words, it is as bad as ever...
  - matt4077 8y ago
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/world/europe/poland-european-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/world/europe/poland-europ...
ajuc 8y ago
Not really. In the preliminary voting last year nobody from Poland voted for articles 13 and 11. Most were against and some abstained. I know because I was campaigning for that and sending them emails. In the next voting still most were against. There was no point at which more people from Poland voted for article 13 than against. https://i.redd.it/8437i584v0m11.png https://i.redd.it/8437i584v0m11.png In Poland internet freedom, software patents etc is a big issue since forever. See: https://thankpoland.info/ https://thankpoland.info/ Anti-ACTA protests started in Poland as well in 2011 and were a big thing, they happened in every city basically and the government had to go back from the deal, which then lead to reverting it on the EU-wide basis.

b0rsuk 8y ago

Speaking as someone who voted for Platforma once, these guys have no credibility today because they don't commit to any program and are fickle. They can't communicate what is that they're trying to do, what's their program, and have no internal consensus on any major subject. Their decisions are based on polls and what they think will get them votes. Polish parties are heavily leader-based and leaders push others around. Current leader of PO is a schemer and back room dealer with insincere smile, he knows how to stay afloat and prevent defeat but not how to win or inspire people.

dexen 8y ago
To expand on that: Back in 2012 when ACTA was on the agenda, there were numerous popular protests against it in Poland, mostly centered around young internet users. Donald Tusk, then-Prime Minister and chief of the Platforma party, reacted with "The government won't bow down to any blackmail"[1] and reaffirmed his intent to sign the ACTA. Thankfully a few days later he changed course and refused to sign it, as per the popular demand. [1] "Nie wyobrażam sobie, by polski rząd ustępował przed jakimkolwiek szantażem" - https://www.wprost.pl/technologie/343029/jutro-podpiszemy-acta.html https://www.wprost.pl/technologie/343029/jutro-podpiszemy-ac...
dreen 8y ago
Still prefer them to PiS
- b0rsuk 8y ago
  The two parties are not very different. Remember they were in a ruling coalition once, and a few people moved from PO to PiS after PiS came to power. Poland has no true left wing party anymore, and there are more extreme right voters too. Something is stirring on the right. PiS and PO are different shades of centrist I think. Especially that what PiS does and what it says are two completely different things.
  - mamon 8y ago
    Funny that you say that, because in my opinion Poland lacks the true right wing party. All major parties are left wing, with their economical programs being slight variations of socialists wealth redistribution, and government regulation of pretty much every domain of life. PiS might pretend to be patriotic and conservative but they are following Marx teaching more than God ones in many areas.

speeq 8y ago

I hope that the Internet doesn't turn into various subnets like US-NET, EU-NET, CHINA-NET .. Article 13 is a worrying development.

jarym 8y ago

We need tougher laws to put these politicians behind bars if they’ve not acted in the best interests of its citizens.

briandear 8y ago
Supposedly you have elections?
- b0rsuk 8y ago
  Poland is a pretty young democracy. There are no strong democratic institutions, there isn't much faith in them and people are quite doubtful. After partitions Poland spent a few hundreds years off the map, at the time when many social changes were talking place (at the start of industrial revolution). For a few centuries Poles no longer ruled themselves and there's no strong tradition of civilized debate. Don't get me started about "democracy of gentry", because the class composed at most 20% of society. So a vast majority had no say in what's going on. There's still admiration for strong figures like Putin, Piłsudski, Churchill, even Stalin. People who don't trust institutions are sympathetic towards autocrats and their displays of strength. The Polish law works in such a way that a party member can jump ship, join another party and still have a seat in parliament. Then if he's loyal enough they put him on a voting list (in many cases you vote on lists of people, not individuals).
  - V-2 8y ago
    > After partitions Poland spent a few hundreds years off the map Your being incorrect on such a basic historical fact is quite a red flag. > For a few centuries Poles no longer ruled themselves 1.23 of a century (1795-1918) is not "a few". Unless my 8 year old nephew is a few meters tall :) > and there's no strong tradition of civilized debate Yes and no. It's true that when Poland didn't exist as an independent state, much of the political debate was pushed underground - or abroad. On the other hand, this very political debate - at least among the intelligentsia - flourished nevertheless. A great many of Poland's finest political writers (such as Staszic, Ściegienny or the Stańczycy) were active in the 19th century. > Don't get me started about "democracy of gentry", because the class composed at most 20% of society. So a vast majority had no say in what's going on. "Don't get me started about Athenian democracy, they had slavery". That's blatant ahistoricism. Democracy of gentry predated the concept of nation in its modern sense. By the standards of the era, this political system was way ahead of its times. The gentry - or the citizens with political rights - accounted for no more than a few percent of the population elsewhere in Europe. And it Poland they weren't a closed caste, either; you could attain the status as well as lose it. There was some degree of social mobility. Poor gentry was pretty much indistinguishable from commoners in terms of affluence, and mixed marriages weren't anything out of the ordinary. Also note that Poland eg. granted voting rights to women as soon as it regained independence (1918). Quite a few democratic countries kept them waiting longer. It wasn't until 1944 in France or 1971 in Switzerland that roughly 50% of the population had no voting rights. > There's still admiration for strong figures like Putin, Piłsudski, Churchill, even Stalin. People who don't trust institutions are sympathetic towards autocrats and their displays of strength. I find it doubtful whether Churchill really counts as an autocrat. And would you care to substantiate your claim of "admiration" for Putin or Stalin? > The Polish law works in such a way that a party member can jump ship, join another party and still have a seat in parliament. That's the whole point of democracy. The mandate comes from the voters, not the party. If the voters feel cheated, they shouldn't elect the guy the next time.

idlewords 8y ago

The name of the party is misspelled in the article, it should be Platforma Obywatelska (Citizens' Platform), not Platformy. Every single time, goddammit.