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This, I feel, is a disingenuous summary of the concerns with explicitly discriminatory policies voiced in the comments here. The issue is not that people don't

This, I feel, is a disingenuous summary of the concerns with explicitly discriminatory policies voiced in the comments here. The issue is not that people don't want to make coding more accessible. The issue most serm to be taking is that many places are pursuing diversity by deliberately making it less accessible for undesireable demographics. See my company's policies for one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 I don't take any issue with boot camps that are exclusive to women, but I can definitely see how people are worried that it reinforces the general atttide that "white/Asian men in tech = bad, women & URM in tech = good" Barriers aren't just being lowered. The're also being erected for some types of people.

CptFribble 8y ago
If you are in a privileged position, and then that privilege is reduced, it can feel like a barrier is going up. It's not. When you rebalance scales, the side that was too high has to go down a little.
- jsbaby608 8y ago
  If I want to change careers, but am a white male..how does that make me 'privileged'????
- malvosenior 8y ago
  That's a very abstract and dismissive take. Having a job isn't a "privileged position" and deciding who gets to be employed based on race and gender is more than "rebalancing scales". It's discrimination and people who have their life and family on the line aren't going to just smile and take one for the team while people push for them to be unemployed.
- Quekid5 8y ago
  This has also been formulated even more succinctly/pithily as > When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. (Unknown author.)
- reitzensteinm 8y ago
  Parent linked to their policy, which contains this: "1. We only accept applicstions from candidate from non-traditional backgrounds if they're diverse. Diverse is defined as any of the following: women, black, Hispanic, or native American - maybe also veterans but I'm not sure. Non-traditional background means coming from a coding boot camp, or majoring in a non-computing related field. I think after 3 years industry experience candidates are considered traditional even if they came from one of those two.*" Note that this isn't impacting those well represented in tech; a white or asian man from a middle or higher class background. It is instead rebalancing the priorities of those lacking in representation. A white guy who had to drop out of school to take care of his family? Not interested. Asian woman who decided her previous field wasn't for her, and does a coding bootcamp? Come on in for your interview. I'm not saying I have an answer, but this is a legitimate concern. Responding with a generic platitude about how OP is merely feeling the effects of losing relative privilege is I think quite belittling and inappropriate.
- manfredo 8y ago
  Over 35% of my company's tech hires we're women in Q1, as compared to an industry representation of 20%. 39% of new grad hires we're women when tech grads were about 20% women. When women join the company they received additional mentorship and leadership opportunities that are exclusive to women. They are also promoted at higher rates than men (albeit slightly). This is in addition to the explicitly discriminatory hiring policies I detailed elsewhere in this thread. What about this situation makes you think that white and Asian men are privileged as compared to women? The assumption that women are underprivileged in tech often does not hold up to scrutiny. Many studies have found significant bias in favor of women. When Google studies it's wages recently it found proportionally more men were underpaid. Again in case you missed it, my company does explicitly deny employment opportunities to white and Asian men where they would have been hired were they women: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 Barriers are going up. Perhaps at the moment this is limited to certain places like San Francisco and silicon valley. But to say barriers aren't going up for white and Asian men is counterfactual. And besides, I'm Cuban myself so I ostensibly belong to an "underprivileged" group (though I would be among the first to tell you that this is a BS generalization. I am not by any means underprivileged).
  - yep8883 8y ago
    Many studies have found significant bias in favor of women" which studies? I think you are basing your opinion solely on anecdotes from your company/bubble. Women are underrepresented in tech - just go any tech conference and see for yourself. Are women not as smart as men when it comes to tech? Or are there barriers to entry for women?
    - manfredo 8y ago
      This one found a 2:1 hiring bias in favor of women: https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360
    - leereeves 8y ago
      Here's one that was big news here not long ago: When Google conducted a study recently to determine whether the company was underpaying women and members of minority groups, it found, to the surprise of just about everyone, that men were paid less money than women for doing similar work. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19303039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19303039
- belorn 8y ago
  The word privilege do not function on individuals. A barrier is a barrier if it prevent a individual from fulfilling their potential.
- leereeves 8y ago
  Lumping all white men together as if they are equally privileged is dishonest. A poor white boy from Appalachia doesn't benefit from whatever "privilege" young white men in the Bay Area might tend to enjoy as a result of their parents' success.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    It's not just white men it's also Asian men. And you raise a good point. The acceptability of "learn to code" when it was directed at laid off coal miners, but sudden shift to unacceptability when it was directed at journalists is extremely hypocritical. White male coal miners who went to a boot camp would have their resumes rejected on the basis of their race and gender. The same would happen to many journalists, but a substantially larger portion of journalists belong to demographics from which we do give a chance at interviewing when they come from boot camps.
- rhegart 8y ago
  Extremely naive and condescending take. You and people who think this way are on an elementary school mindset of “justice” and fighting against the man combined with a misplaced ego power trip.
isabella_r 8y ago
So true. It is also embarrassing for many women in tech. I don't want anyone to look at me and feel threatened but I know sometimes people do feel that way.
spamizbad 8y ago
Is there any evidence of a "general attitude" that white and asian men are bad in technology? Because if they are, they must be incredible at what they do as they keep getting hired in droves. I think the view is they're overrepresented, but the "bad" part of that is the overrepresentation, not the race or gender. For example the American Association of Educators is trying to encourage more men to become elementary school teachers, where women are drastically overrepresented (It makes tech look like a utopian melting pot). By doing so, they're not saying women are bad, but they are saying the profession would benefit significantly from more male participation, particularly when addressing concerns specific to young boys who are more likely to struggle in school.
- manfredo 8y ago
  Sure, but are they explicitly discriminating against women in hiring teachers in order to increase the percentage of male teachers? Because more and more that's what's going on in tech companies (with the genders reversed).
  - wsy 8y ago
    Of course. If a man and a women apply for the same primary school teacher position with the same skill level, they will hire the man.
    - manfredo 8y ago
      But do they explicitly deny women jobs for a position where they would have hired a man? As in do men get two chances to pass an interview when women get one? Do they have blanket policies to not hire women of certain backgrounds where they do hire men of those backgrounds?
      - wsy 8y ago
        I don't know that. But even what I described disadvantages female teachers, and rightfully so.
40acres 8y ago
This is bad policy, but in my experience also an outlier. I'm actually quite surprised that a company would publish this policy, as opposed to simply executing it under the rug. I have to ask -- how large is your company? Is it public? Secondly, I'd also disagree that about the general attitudes of folks pushing diversity initiatives. No one is trying to eliminate white and Asian men from the workforce. This is more about bringing people in, not excluding populations.
- manfredo 8y ago
  It's in the San Francisco Bay Area and it's between 1,000 and 10,000 people. I'm not going to say anything more than that because I've already posted specific statistics that can probably identify the company for people who work there. I've also probably posted enough info about myself on this profile to identify me if people really try. It's somewhat under the rug, but it's basically an open secret like Area 51. I explain in greater detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19465891 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19465891 Again maybe it's a regional thing, but in silicon valley policies like these are pretty standard in my experience. In fact, many of my colleagues have called people racist and sexist for opposing these policies. These poilicies aren't just accepted, they're expected. I really don't think a lot of people understand just how social acceptable it is to discriminate against white and Asian men. Multiple managers have written in public email lists that they don't intend to hire white or Asian men for certain roles, and nobody took issue with this. I get that inclusion of women and URM doesn't have to come at the exclusion of white and Asian men, but many companies are framing diversity in terms of percentages. That inherently puts it in zero sum terms. Everyone wants to have > 30% but there aren't enough women to go around. So the only way to achieve that goal is to deny employment to qualified men. It is indeed pursuing diversity through exclusion. I get that having boot camps to get women into tech doesn't inherently cause companies to enact discriminatory policies like these. But saying outright that men are not welcome is a clear reminder that in many peoples' eyes, men's opportunities do not deserve the same protection as other groups. Replace men with pretty much any other group (except maybe Asians) and this situation would be outrageous. If we genuinely do believe in equality, then it needs to be just as unacceptable to do the same to men.

CptFribble 8y ago

If you are in a privileged position, and then that privilege is reduced, it can feel like a barrier is going up. It's not. When you rebalance scales, the side that was too high has to go down a little.

jsbaby608 8y ago
If I want to change careers, but am a white male..how does that make me 'privileged'????
malvosenior 8y ago
That's a very abstract and dismissive take. Having a job isn't a "privileged position" and deciding who gets to be employed based on race and gender is more than "rebalancing scales". It's discrimination and people who have their life and family on the line aren't going to just smile and take one for the team while people push for them to be unemployed.
Quekid5 8y ago
This has also been formulated even more succinctly/pithily as > When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. (Unknown author.)
reitzensteinm 8y ago
Parent linked to their policy, which contains this: "1. We only accept applicstions from candidate from non-traditional backgrounds if they're diverse. Diverse is defined as any of the following: women, black, Hispanic, or native American - maybe also veterans but I'm not sure. Non-traditional background means coming from a coding boot camp, or majoring in a non-computing related field. I think after 3 years industry experience candidates are considered traditional even if they came from one of those two.*" Note that this isn't impacting those well represented in tech; a white or asian man from a middle or higher class background. It is instead rebalancing the priorities of those lacking in representation. A white guy who had to drop out of school to take care of his family? Not interested. Asian woman who decided her previous field wasn't for her, and does a coding bootcamp? Come on in for your interview. I'm not saying I have an answer, but this is a legitimate concern. Responding with a generic platitude about how OP is merely feeling the effects of losing relative privilege is I think quite belittling and inappropriate.
manfredo 8y ago
Over 35% of my company's tech hires we're women in Q1, as compared to an industry representation of 20%. 39% of new grad hires we're women when tech grads were about 20% women. When women join the company they received additional mentorship and leadership opportunities that are exclusive to women. They are also promoted at higher rates than men (albeit slightly). This is in addition to the explicitly discriminatory hiring policies I detailed elsewhere in this thread. What about this situation makes you think that white and Asian men are privileged as compared to women? The assumption that women are underprivileged in tech often does not hold up to scrutiny. Many studies have found significant bias in favor of women. When Google studies it's wages recently it found proportionally more men were underpaid. Again in case you missed it, my company does explicitly deny employment opportunities to white and Asian men where they would have been hired were they women: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 Barriers are going up. Perhaps at the moment this is limited to certain places like San Francisco and silicon valley. But to say barriers aren't going up for white and Asian men is counterfactual. And besides, I'm Cuban myself so I ostensibly belong to an "underprivileged" group (though I would be among the first to tell you that this is a BS generalization. I am not by any means underprivileged).
- yep8883 8y ago
  Many studies have found significant bias in favor of women" which studies? I think you are basing your opinion solely on anecdotes from your company/bubble. Women are underrepresented in tech - just go any tech conference and see for yourself. Are women not as smart as men when it comes to tech? Or are there barriers to entry for women?
  - manfredo 8y ago
    This one found a 2:1 hiring bias in favor of women: https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360
  - leereeves 8y ago
    Here's one that was big news here not long ago: When Google conducted a study recently to determine whether the company was underpaying women and members of minority groups, it found, to the surprise of just about everyone, that men were paid less money than women for doing similar work. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19303039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19303039
belorn 8y ago
The word privilege do not function on individuals. A barrier is a barrier if it prevent a individual from fulfilling their potential.
leereeves 8y ago
Lumping all white men together as if they are equally privileged is dishonest. A poor white boy from Appalachia doesn't benefit from whatever "privilege" young white men in the Bay Area might tend to enjoy as a result of their parents' success.
- manfredo 8y ago
  It's not just white men it's also Asian men. And you raise a good point. The acceptability of "learn to code" when it was directed at laid off coal miners, but sudden shift to unacceptability when it was directed at journalists is extremely hypocritical. White male coal miners who went to a boot camp would have their resumes rejected on the basis of their race and gender. The same would happen to many journalists, but a substantially larger portion of journalists belong to demographics from which we do give a chance at interviewing when they come from boot camps.
rhegart 8y ago
Extremely naive and condescending take. You and people who think this way are on an elementary school mindset of “justice” and fighting against the man combined with a misplaced ego power trip.

isabella_r 8y ago

So true. It is also embarrassing for many women in tech. I don't want anyone to look at me and feel threatened but I know sometimes people do feel that way.

spamizbad 8y ago

Is there any evidence of a "general attitude" that white and asian men are bad in technology? Because if they are, they must be incredible at what they do as they keep getting hired in droves. I think the view is they're overrepresented, but the "bad" part of that is the overrepresentation, not the race or gender. For example the American Association of Educators is trying to encourage more men to become elementary school teachers, where women are drastically overrepresented (It makes tech look like a utopian melting pot). By doing so, they're not saying women are bad, but they are saying the profession would benefit significantly from more male participation, particularly when addressing concerns specific to young boys who are more likely to struggle in school.

manfredo 8y ago
Sure, but are they explicitly discriminating against women in hiring teachers in order to increase the percentage of male teachers? Because more and more that's what's going on in tech companies (with the genders reversed).
- wsy 8y ago
  Of course. If a man and a women apply for the same primary school teacher position with the same skill level, they will hire the man.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    But do they explicitly deny women jobs for a position where they would have hired a man? As in do men get two chances to pass an interview when women get one? Do they have blanket policies to not hire women of certain backgrounds where they do hire men of those backgrounds?
    - wsy 8y ago
      I don't know that. But even what I described disadvantages female teachers, and rightfully so.

40acres 8y ago

This is bad policy, but in my experience also an outlier. I'm actually quite surprised that a company would publish this policy, as opposed to simply executing it under the rug. I have to ask -- how large is your company? Is it public? Secondly, I'd also disagree that about the general attitudes of folks pushing diversity initiatives. No one is trying to eliminate white and Asian men from the workforce. This is more about bringing people in, not excluding populations.

manfredo 8y ago
It's in the San Francisco Bay Area and it's between 1,000 and 10,000 people. I'm not going to say anything more than that because I've already posted specific statistics that can probably identify the company for people who work there. I've also probably posted enough info about myself on this profile to identify me if people really try. It's somewhat under the rug, but it's basically an open secret like Area 51. I explain in greater detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19465891 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19465891 Again maybe it's a regional thing, but in silicon valley policies like these are pretty standard in my experience. In fact, many of my colleagues have called people racist and sexist for opposing these policies. These poilicies aren't just accepted, they're expected. I really don't think a lot of people understand just how social acceptable it is to discriminate against white and Asian men. Multiple managers have written in public email lists that they don't intend to hire white or Asian men for certain roles, and nobody took issue with this. I get that inclusion of women and URM doesn't have to come at the exclusion of white and Asian men, but many companies are framing diversity in terms of percentages. That inherently puts it in zero sum terms. Everyone wants to have > 30% but there aren't enough women to go around. So the only way to achieve that goal is to deny employment to qualified men. It is indeed pursuing diversity through exclusion. I get that having boot camps to get women into tech doesn't inherently cause companies to enact discriminatory policies like these. But saying outright that men are not welcome is a clear reminder that in many peoples' eyes, men's opportunities do not deserve the same protection as other groups. Replace men with pretty much any other group (except maybe Asians) and this situation would be outrageous. If we genuinely do believe in equality, then it needs to be just as unacceptable to do the same to men.