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Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work not just in our industry but in society as a whole. How can we

Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work not just in our industry but in society as a whole. How can we simultaneously be an industry built on free an open source software and yet try to put up walls around our industry when efforts are made to make it more accessible to others? The barriers to programming are being lowered and this is an excellent thing. More diverse companies, different types of people to bounce ideas on, new perspectives. This is what our industry needs more than ever, and yet so many feel a threat veiled by concerns of affirmative action and 'reverse discrimination'. We need to acknowledge the barriers that have existed in our industry but may be blind to you personally because you never had to deal with it. For one, access to a PC for a long time was restricted to those with low incomes. My mother saved her income tax refund for two years to buy our first PC, the one I learned to program on. The schools I attended didn't have a computer lab until my junior year of high school. It's a great thing that programming is being spread to those who did not have access before. If software is eating the world everyone had better become familiar.

ericsoderstrom 8y ago
> Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work All the top comments I see are supportive and encouraging. Maybe there were some negative removed comments, but overall this thread doesn't seem to demonstrate gatekeeping and discrimination.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  Enabled flagged/dead in your options. I think it's pretty valuable to see the way moderators are shaping the conversation.
  - coolreader18 8y ago
    Isn't it a common misconception that flagged/dead comments are because of moderators? Dead comments happen automatically if enough people flag it[0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173836
  - dang 8y ago
    Moderators aren't doing that, other than by having banned accounts in the past, which makes future comments [dead]. Users are doing the rest. I think we might have banned a couple of accounts in this thread, but there would be a comment there clearly saying so.
manfredo 8y ago
This, I feel, is a disingenuous summary of the concerns with explicitly discriminatory policies voiced in the comments here. The issue is not that people don't want to make coding more accessible. The issue most serm to be taking is that many places are pursuing diversity by deliberately making it less accessible for undesireable demographics. See my company's policies for one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 I don't take any issue with boot camps that are exclusive to women, but I can definitely see how people are worried that it reinforces the general atttide that "white/Asian men in tech = bad, women & URM in tech = good" Barriers aren't just being lowered. The're also being erected for some types of people.
- CptFribble 8y ago
  If you are in a privileged position, and then that privilege is reduced, it can feel like a barrier is going up. It's not. When you rebalance scales, the side that was too high has to go down a little.
  - jsbaby608 8y ago
    If I want to change careers, but am a white male..how does that make me 'privileged'????
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    That's a very abstract and dismissive take. Having a job isn't a "privileged position" and deciding who gets to be employed based on race and gender is more than "rebalancing scales". It's discrimination and people who have their life and family on the line aren't going to just smile and take one for the team while people push for them to be unemployed.
  - Quekid5 8y ago
    This has also been formulated even more succinctly/pithily as > When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. (Unknown author.)
  - reitzensteinm 8y ago
grondilu 8y ago
Which barriers are gender-related, though?
gabbygab 8y ago
And some of the comments on this thread is a master class of virtue signaling as well. All sides seem well represented here. Also, who is putting up walls? Be specific please. I too come from a low income "unprivileged" family and got my first computer in high school. And the tech industry has always been diverse. It has been the most diverse and the most meritocratic industry for a long time. It's the industry where minorities and immigrants like Jerry Yang and Sergei Brin can thrive unlike more establish industries like news, media, oil, finance, transportation, etc. Why are you painting a false image of what the tech industry is like? There are no barriers to programming. It is the most available and meritocratic and fair industries around. Also, your entire comment had no relevance to the article. You just went on a stereotypical virtue signaling rant. Also, do you really want diversity, or do you want a "diverse" group of people who all think like you? I just can't handle the hypocrisy. All over HN, you support H1-B visas and claim the tech industry's success is due to diversity provided by H1-B visas. And elsewhere, you claim the tech industry is not diverse and the problem with the tech industry is the lack of diversity. Which is it? You can't have it both ways just to suit your agenda. Be consistent.
pathseeker 8y ago
> Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work not just in our industry but in society as a whole. You might not realize it, but this is a strawman without linking to specific comments or providing some kind of examples.
belorn 8y ago
When people talk past each other what we get is two sides with genuine concerns feeling that the other side ignores it, thus painting the other in the worst possible interpretation possible. You want "the other side" to acknowledge the barriers existed in our industry, and yet do not want to acknowledge that reverse discrimination directly hurt people. Being rejected for the identity you are born with hurt on a very personal and primal way. Then we have cases like my own perspective. I have seen this kind of gender initiative for about 30 years now here in Sweden. Gender segregation in this industry has in the 30 last year gotten worse. I know for example a woman who took a "women only programming course" in the 90s, and she is now the single person left still in the programming profession out of every single person that graduated (she got a job before she graduated but that might be beyond the point). Study after study report the same where if a person belong to the minority gender in the work place, the risk that they will switch work place to one where they are majority is significant every single year. If I recall right it actually increase for each year, in particular after they graduate. Regardless if Men or women are the minority in the study, the result is similar. The only effective measure I have seen to prevent this pattern is mentorship programs. I have not ready any in-depth explanation why they tend to work, through I strongly suspect it addresses some of the core issues behind gender segregation. An observation I made is that you can offer mentorship to both majority and minority segments of a group and the minority will more likely join and participate, which still focus the effort on the minority but does not exclude if any individuals in the majority have a similar need for the service. Obviously not everyone of that identify as belonging to the majority is identical and individuals have different needs.
chocolatebunny 8y ago
What exactly are the barriers to programming for women?
skookumchuck 8y ago
Barriers to programming are very, very low: 1. no degree is required, not even a high school diploma 2. a Windows laptop can be had for $100 at a pawn shop 3. an incredible amount of programming tutorials exist for free on the internet, including a complete CS degree course from MIT 4. a business license can be had by just filing a bit of paperwork with the state 5. operating a business on the internet means nobody needs to know what sex/religion/age/whatever you are 6. programming tools and SDKs are available for free 7. you can work from home How much more can one ask for?
black-tea 8y ago
What barriers are there? Everyone has access to computers and all of our software is out there on github etc. Women have more opportunities to learn to program than men do. They just don't want to. They don't understand it and don't like it. Get over it.

ericsoderstrom 8y ago

> Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work All the top comments I see are supportive and encouraging. Maybe there were some negative removed comments, but overall this thread doesn't seem to demonstrate gatekeeping and discrimination.

djsumdog 8y ago
Enabled flagged/dead in your options. I think it's pretty valuable to see the way moderators are shaping the conversation.
- coolreader18 8y ago
  Isn't it a common misconception that flagged/dead comments are because of moderators? Dead comments happen automatically if enough people flag it[0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173836
- dang 8y ago
  Moderators aren't doing that, other than by having banned accounts in the past, which makes future comments [dead]. Users are doing the rest. I think we might have banned a couple of accounts in this thread, but there would be a comment there clearly saying so.

manfredo 8y ago

This, I feel, is a disingenuous summary of the concerns with explicitly discriminatory policies voiced in the comments here. The issue is not that people don't want to make coding more accessible. The issue most serm to be taking is that many places are pursuing diversity by deliberately making it less accessible for undesireable demographics. See my company's policies for one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19464944 I don't take any issue with boot camps that are exclusive to women, but I can definitely see how people are worried that it reinforces the general atttide that "white/Asian men in tech = bad, women & URM in tech = good" Barriers aren't just being lowered. The're also being erected for some types of people.

CptFribble 8y ago
If you are in a privileged position, and then that privilege is reduced, it can feel like a barrier is going up. It's not. When you rebalance scales, the side that was too high has to go down a little.
- jsbaby608 8y ago
  If I want to change careers, but am a white male..how does that make me 'privileged'????
- malvosenior 8y ago
  That's a very abstract and dismissive take. Having a job isn't a "privileged position" and deciding who gets to be employed based on race and gender is more than "rebalancing scales". It's discrimination and people who have their life and family on the line aren't going to just smile and take one for the team while people push for them to be unemployed.
- Quekid5 8y ago
  This has also been formulated even more succinctly/pithily as > When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. (Unknown author.)
- reitzensteinm 8y ago

grondilu 8y ago

Which barriers are gender-related, though?

gabbygab 8y ago

And some of the comments on this thread is a master class of virtue signaling as well. All sides seem well represented here. Also, who is putting up walls? Be specific please. I too come from a low income "unprivileged" family and got my first computer in high school. And the tech industry has always been diverse. It has been the most diverse and the most meritocratic industry for a long time. It's the industry where minorities and immigrants like Jerry Yang and Sergei Brin can thrive unlike more establish industries like news, media, oil, finance, transportation, etc. Why are you painting a false image of what the tech industry is like? There are no barriers to programming. It is the most available and meritocratic and fair industries around. Also, your entire comment had no relevance to the article. You just went on a stereotypical virtue signaling rant. Also, do you really want diversity, or do you want a "diverse" group of people who all think like you? I just can't handle the hypocrisy. All over HN, you support H1-B visas and claim the tech industry's success is due to diversity provided by H1-B visas. And elsewhere, you claim the tech industry is not diverse and the problem with the tech industry is the lack of diversity. Which is it? You can't have it both ways just to suit your agenda. Be consistent.

pathseeker 8y ago

> Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work not just in our industry but in society as a whole. You might not realize it, but this is a strawman without linking to specific comments or providing some kind of examples.

belorn 8y ago

When people talk past each other what we get is two sides with genuine concerns feeling that the other side ignores it, thus painting the other in the worst possible interpretation possible. You want "the other side" to acknowledge the barriers existed in our industry, and yet do not want to acknowledge that reverse discrimination directly hurt people. Being rejected for the identity you are born with hurt on a very personal and primal way. Then we have cases like my own perspective. I have seen this kind of gender initiative for about 30 years now here in Sweden. Gender segregation in this industry has in the 30 last year gotten worse. I know for example a woman who took a "women only programming course" in the 90s, and she is now the single person left still in the programming profession out of every single person that graduated (she got a job before she graduated but that might be beyond the point). Study after study report the same where if a person belong to the minority gender in the work place, the risk that they will switch work place to one where they are majority is significant every single year. If I recall right it actually increase for each year, in particular after they graduate. Regardless if Men or women are the minority in the study, the result is similar. The only effective measure I have seen to prevent this pattern is mentorship programs. I have not ready any in-depth explanation why they tend to work, through I strongly suspect it addresses some of the core issues behind gender segregation. An observation I made is that you can offer mentorship to both majority and minority segments of a group and the minority will more likely join and participate, which still focus the effort on the minority but does not exclude if any individuals in the majority have a similar need for the service. Obviously not everyone of that identify as belonging to the majority is identical and individuals have different needs.

chocolatebunny 8y ago

What exactly are the barriers to programming for women?

skookumchuck 8y ago

Barriers to programming are very, very low: 1. no degree is required, not even a high school diploma 2. a Windows laptop can be had for $100 at a pawn shop 3. an incredible amount of programming tutorials exist for free on the internet, including a complete CS degree course from MIT 4. a business license can be had by just filing a bit of paperwork with the state 5. operating a business on the internet means nobody needs to know what sex/religion/age/whatever you are 6. programming tools and SDKs are available for free 7. you can work from home How much more can one ask for?

black-tea 8y ago

What barriers are there? Everyone has access to computers and all of our software is out there on github etc. Women have more opportunities to learn to program than men do. They just don't want to. They don't understand it and don't like it. Get over it.