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> ... people are nice to each other but don't seem to ever actually connect. People will say they've "known" someone for 5 years, when they at most speak once o

> ... people are nice to each other but don't seem to ever actually connect. People will say they've "known" someone for 5 years, when they at most speak once or twice every year (and often never touch on anything substantial, either) ... What do you mean by 'connect', exactly, and how would you be able to judge about what is substantial to others, when the culture is so different to the Western one ? I have friends from Europe and the States, that after decades here, still don't get the vast differences in thinking and behaviour. There's an emphasis here in people understanding how others feel ( or making an educated guess ) without actual spoken communication, that is difficult to understand for Westerners even after years in the country. A gesture indicating a feeling is often much more appreciated than a full-blown conversation. 空気を読め。 Most people that have come to visit us and met part of our Japanese family often comment on how cold or distant some family members seem to be despite being siblings, or a couple, and they couldn't be more wrong. Some of those family members have the closest relationship I've ever known people to have. They just don't walk around making a point about it, or need to express it outwardly. My wife would talk about the weather with her mother on the phone, once every few days. Just the weather. It was not what she talked about that mattered. It was the fact that she called, no matter what. If we had been living in Namie when Fukushima went nuts, and she had been on the phone, we wouldn't have left the house on the face of a nuclear meltdown before finishing the call. And she would have talked only about the ckufing weather, I assure you.

hardwaresofton 8y ago
Being reserved in displays of affection with family is not what I'm talking about -- I'm talking about people you don't share blood with. Families can say lots to each other without words because there's usually a roughly 1-2 decade period where they saw each other basically every day for extended periods of time, went through hardships and usually one side literally helped form the other side. IMO the order is reversed -- they don't need to talk because they have a very good/healthy relationship, it takes a large amount of consistent interaction to get to that level. tangent Lately I'm really starting to think that relationships are really about both people building accurate models of the other person in their own heads -- after all you never really know another person, you just know about them and bring them into your your life and interact. When people are surprised by others it's because what the person did conflicts with the model of the person they had in their head. Back to the topic though, in my comment I was more referring to friends/people you didn't grow up with -- people you met in high school/college/working in your 20s. All this said, I think Japan has the propensity for great relationships as well -- I see old people who look like they've been good friends for 50+ years (same neighborhood, same groups, kids go to the same highschool, etc) and that is a wonderful thing worthy of envy. Also just as much as people quietly show confidence in each other and converse without words, one of the biggest causes of societal pressure is unspoken expectations. The stiff-upper-lip gets idealized as the "right" way to interact and that's what the norm is. While most cases I'm sure are benign, expressing feeling is generally considered a good thing in a healthy relationship, whether or not you both know whatever you were going to say or not.
- Ultramanoid 8y ago
  While I gave examples of family, my first two paragraphs referred to Japanese society in general. Should have been clearer. > ... expressing feeling is generally considered a good thing in a healthy relationship ... Not sure that can be assumed to be a universal truth. In most cases, in Japan, expressing feeling is sign of a problem. And often one reason ( of many ) for the isolation foreigners can face in Japanese society. While trying to 'express' themselves, they're actually making others feel uncomfortable by doing so, or trying to convey things that have been already understood, no need 'to explain the joke', you're ruining it. Not trying to paint a rosy picture here, anyway, about Japanese ways. There are many problems in Japanese society ( directly related to the topic and mentioned in other comments, the massive and ubiquitous alcoholism and all its terrible consequences, for instance ), and societal pressure reaches levels hard to understand in the West, for sure.
  - hardwaresofton 8y ago
    > Not sure that can be assumed to be a universal truth. In most cases, in Japan, expressing feeling is sign of a problem. And often one reason ( of many ) for the isolation foreigners can face in Japanese society. While trying to 'express' themselves, they're actually making others feel uncomfortable by doing so, or trying to convey things that have been already understood, no need 'to explain the joke', you're ruining it. That's certainly true -- differences in self-expression is often cited when talking to other foreigners about these kinds of issues. Oh and I did not assume you were trying to pain an overly rosy picture of japanese culture -- I agree that they certainly emote less, and need to emote less because of the different cultural norms.
woodandsteel 8y ago
>There's an emphasis here in people understanding how others feel ( or making an educated guess ) without actual spoken communication, that is difficult to understand for Westerners even after years in the country I assume a key problem with that is that when there is a disagreement that can only be well resolved through talking things out, they just don't know how to do it. So instead it is suppressed and everyone just pretends there is no disagreement.
- Ultramanoid 8y ago
  To your point, there is much repressed anger, since the default attitude is to put up with things not to inconvenience others, a situation arising sometimes simply out of not speaking out on a problem. Which is wonderful in daily interaction as there seems to be no friction or unpleasantness as is the case often if not always in the West, where everyone complains and fidgets about everything. But, it’s been mentioned already I think, how extreme politeness in Japan can in fact be passive aggression in full force. And there's the occasional explosion of course.

hardwaresofton 8y ago

Being reserved in displays of affection with family is not what I'm talking about -- I'm talking about people you don't share blood with. Families can say lots to each other without words because there's usually a roughly 1-2 decade period where they saw each other basically every day for extended periods of time, went through hardships and usually one side literally helped form the other side. IMO the order is reversed -- they don't need to talk because they have a very good/healthy relationship, it takes a large amount of consistent interaction to get to that level. tangent Lately I'm really starting to think that relationships are really about both people building accurate models of the other person in their own heads -- after all you never really know another person, you just know about them and bring them into your your life and interact. When people are surprised by others it's because what the person did conflicts with the model of the person they had in their head. Back to the topic though, in my comment I was more referring to friends/people you didn't grow up with -- people you met in high school/college/working in your 20s. All this said, I think Japan has the propensity for great relationships as well -- I see old people who look like they've been good friends for 50+ years (same neighborhood, same groups, kids go to the same highschool, etc) and that is a wonderful thing worthy of envy. Also just as much as people quietly show confidence in each other and converse without words, one of the biggest causes of societal pressure is unspoken expectations. The stiff-upper-lip gets idealized as the "right" way to interact and that's what the norm is. While most cases I'm sure are benign, expressing feeling is generally considered a good thing in a healthy relationship, whether or not you both know whatever you were going to say or not.

Ultramanoid 8y ago
While I gave examples of family, my first two paragraphs referred to Japanese society in general. Should have been clearer. > ... expressing feeling is generally considered a good thing in a healthy relationship ... Not sure that can be assumed to be a universal truth. In most cases, in Japan, expressing feeling is sign of a problem. And often one reason ( of many ) for the isolation foreigners can face in Japanese society. While trying to 'express' themselves, they're actually making others feel uncomfortable by doing so, or trying to convey things that have been already understood, no need 'to explain the joke', you're ruining it. Not trying to paint a rosy picture here, anyway, about Japanese ways. There are many problems in Japanese society ( directly related to the topic and mentioned in other comments, the massive and ubiquitous alcoholism and all its terrible consequences, for instance ), and societal pressure reaches levels hard to understand in the West, for sure.
- hardwaresofton 8y ago
  > Not sure that can be assumed to be a universal truth. In most cases, in Japan, expressing feeling is sign of a problem. And often one reason ( of many ) for the isolation foreigners can face in Japanese society. While trying to 'express' themselves, they're actually making others feel uncomfortable by doing so, or trying to convey things that have been already understood, no need 'to explain the joke', you're ruining it. That's certainly true -- differences in self-expression is often cited when talking to other foreigners about these kinds of issues. Oh and I did not assume you were trying to pain an overly rosy picture of japanese culture -- I agree that they certainly emote less, and need to emote less because of the different cultural norms.

woodandsteel 8y ago

>There's an emphasis here in people understanding how others feel ( or making an educated guess ) without actual spoken communication, that is difficult to understand for Westerners even after years in the country I assume a key problem with that is that when there is a disagreement that can only be well resolved through talking things out, they just don't know how to do it. So instead it is suppressed and everyone just pretends there is no disagreement.

Ultramanoid 8y ago
To your point, there is much repressed anger, since the default attitude is to put up with things not to inconvenience others, a situation arising sometimes simply out of not speaking out on a problem. Which is wonderful in daily interaction as there seems to be no friction or unpleasantness as is the case often if not always in the West, where everyone complains and fidgets about everything. But, it’s been mentioned already I think, how extreme politeness in Japan can in fact be passive aggression in full force. And there's the occasional explosion of course.