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GoFundMe Bans Anti-Vaxxers Who Raise Money to Spread Misinformation
- cpr 8y agoThe one question 'pro-vaxxers' can't answer is: If vaccines work, why would someone fear non-vaccinated people? Isn't that just taking 'anti-vaxxers' out of the gene pool? I say this as someone who isn't anti-vaccine per se but only anti-unsafe-vaccines. And the safety of vaccines is very much in question today, which you wouldn't know if you only read and believe the mainstream media.
- minikites 8y agoNot everyone is capable of getting vaccinated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
- astura 8y agoIllnesses killing non-vaccinated people is a health hazard to the innocent. People who can't get vaccines (too young, too sick, immunocompromised) rely on herd immunity to protect them. People who can get vaccines but don't endanger those who can't get vaccines. They also put a unneeded strain on the medical system. We also have the power to eliminate some illnesses completely so that vaccines are no longer needed in the future generations. We've done this with smallpox and we are close with polio. As far as "safe/unsafe," that's disingenuous, there's no such thing - no medical intervention is completely without risk, but we know that the benefits of vaccines on the marketplace today unequivocally outweigh the (very minor) risks for the vast majority of healthy people.
- stackola 8y agoI know it's a private business and they can do what they want, but does anyone feel the open arms with which censorship is greeted, even begged for these days, is going to come back to haunt us? First they came for the anti-vaxxers...
- shhehebehdh 8y agoWhat bothers me is how literally every story about this sees a horde of comments embracing the slippery slope fallacy. Not all slopes are slippery. It is possible draw lines and stick to them over time.
- tlackemann 8y agoCouldn't agree more though I am on a bit on the fence. I do not believe banning or censoring blatant misinformation is bad. We have more information at our fingertips than ever before and I personally believe that we should be able to access all that knowledge freely without censorship. There is some information better not shared though and this is where I am divided. We do not have an obligation to inform or influence anyone's decisions - but when those decisions harm childrens' lives then I think action needs to be taken. This is the most obvious action that could have been taken and I'm glad it was.
- aetherson 8y agoWhat line are you drawing?
- wtdata 8y agoMy problem is actually: who gets to draw those lines and how can I be sure they won't use that power to serve their own personal interests.
- lovehashbrowns 8y agoPrivate companies draw those lines, as they always have done. This is GoFundMe. They also have a ToS that specifies what you're allowed to have on their service, so they've done this for as long as that ToS has existed. Anti-vax people can use some other service or create their own.
- RobertRoberts 8y agoThis is gimmick I keep hearing "Private companies", that is your slippery slope. The government doesn't _need_ to censoring anything if they get the companies to it for them. That is fascism.
- daeken 8y agoThis misinformation is literally killing people. A private company fighting that is absolutely something to celebrate; GoFundMe gets my full support here.
- zeropnc 8y agoCountering “misinformation” by correct information is a far better approach than censorship. The logical fallacy of “censorship is okay when I know it’s wrong” sets such a dangerous precedent, yet it’s downright celebrated by America’s left. It’s quite frightening.
- grandridge 8y agobingo
- daeken 8y agoThe information is out there, and is being broadcast publicly. Shutting down misinformation is essential when people don't care about getting valid information.
- minikites 8y ago>Countering “misinformation” by correct information is a far better approach than censorship. The recent increase of people who believe the Earth is flat seems to be direct evidence against your claim. Scientific and information literacy is not a widespread skill.
- sathishmanohar 8y agoDoes believing earth is flat makes the earth flat or vice versa? If it is truth, It'll prevail. Who is this new authority on worldwide truths that gets to decide what the masses consume.
- minikites 8y ago>If it is truth, It'll prevail. If more people believe the Earth is flat today versus 20 years ago, the truth is not prevailing: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/11/28/americas-flat-earth-movement-appears-to-be-growing https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/11/28/americas...
- aetherson 8y agoIt's weird how much the anti-vaxxers have become the whipping boys of the current US. Is it because they've got both the smell of dirty hippies and also anti-science religious conservatives and also annoying soccer moms so everyone can love to hate them? Not giving your kid vaccinations is stupid. But on the scale of "ways you can mess up your kid," it's pretty mild. In terms of the amount of harm that non-vaccinated kids do to everyone else, it's extremely near zero. Almost certainly, if you drive a car more than a few times a year, you're endangering those around you more than any anti-vaxxer is. And if you actually want to convince anti-vaxxers to change their ways, this is clearly not the right way to do it. Pouring hate on people feels (scarily) good in a lot of ways, but it doesn't change the minds of the people you're demonizing. Is there any clearer demonstration of this than the complete persistence of anti-vaxxing sentiment in the face of steadily increasing screams of protest over the last 5 years?
- sathishmanohar 8y agoBut injecting kids with aluminum and mercury is to be applauded?
- hello_newman 8y agoOh god you’re one of them. I’m sorry for you and your family.
- RobertRoberts 8y agoCalling someone "one of them" is exactly how censorship on a social level works. Why not discuss the merits of the science instead of ad hominem attacks?
- sneakernets 8y agoBecause the science is so solid that it's beating a dead horse at this point. But with anti-vaxxers, It's like telling someone the red apple you're holding is red, yet they insist that it's green. You can't argue "the merits" with people like this.
- sathishmanohar 8y agoHow would a company assume an agenda is misinformation before looking at the information critically?
- luiscleto 8y agoStarting this with a few disclaimers: 1) I unequivocally believe all anti-vaxxers are wrong, 2) I absolutely support efforts to fight their misinformation, 3) I don't even necessarily think it was a bad decision by gofundme to do this; Now, what I'd like to question is the effectiveness of taking down those campaigns. My points: 1) I doubt that an average user scrolling through gofundme would see and decide to support such a campaign, I'd imagine most of the funding comes from the links being directly shared 2) The above makes me think such campaigns will simply move to a GoFundMe competitor and be equally (un?)successful, effectively nullifying any changes 3) Gives more attention + victim points to anti vaxxers 4) If their discourse is further pushed out of mainstream platforms, does it actually reduce the spread of their ideas or just limit their exposure to counter-arguments and public condemnation? Edit: formatting
- maxaf 8y agoAnti-vaxxers are like terrorists: they don't really do much per se, but the FUD they spread does immense harm to society. Defunding & deplatforming such groups is a methodology that is practically inescapable for as long as laymen are liable to believe anti-vaxxers or be afraid of terrorists. Of course, the real solution is education: both of the purveyors of misinformation and of those who fall victim to it. That's a multi-generational process that should ideally happen in parallel with short-term fixes.
- creaghpatr 8y ago>[Anti-vaxxers] are like terrorists: they don't really do much per se, but the FUD they spread does immense harm to society. Defunding & deplatforming such groups is a methodology that is practically inescapable for as long as laymen are liable to believe [anti-vaxxers] or be afraid of terrorists. You could replace that phrase with many different ideologies. Would you?
- astrodust 8y agoThey're not like terrorists, they are terrorists. Some of these diseases we have vaccines for are vicious and could kill more than any suicide bomber could dream of.
- RobertRoberts 8y agoThis will inevitably lead to 1984 style censorship. The next 5 things censored en mass will all be "objectionable", but then finally something good, normal or simply against the orthodoxy of the day will be censored that no average person would object to. But then it will be too late, because everyone supported censoring ideas they simply didn't like being spread. Then it will be against the law to object to anything that is official censored.
- matthewmacleod 8y agoYour alternative suggestion then? All services are required to carry all content, regardless of their owner’s views?
- sathishmanohar 8y agoOr make owner-less decentralized platforms where a few humans can't be coerced into cherry picking content to fit a particular agenda.
- matthewmacleod 8y agoYeah, you’ve just created a global child pornography network.
- sathishmanohar 8y agoThanks for displaying Ad hominem 101 !
- matthewmacleod 8y agoI think you might need to look up the meaning of that, pal. The point is – a globally decentralised publishing network also has obvious, quite possibly terminal, problems.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
- w0mbat 8y agoThe anti-vaxx delusion is a contagious viral illness of the brain that enables the spread of biological viruses that do physical harm. This is not a free speech issue, it's a public health issue.
- bilbo0s 8y agoTo be honest, it can be both. That said, yes, public safety is a real concern.
- RobertRoberts 8y agoDid you know that vaccine protection doesn't last a lifetime? And that all the adults that got vaccinated as a child in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and maybe even the 90s are no longer immune? But none of those people have been required to get immunized again to maintain herd immunity. This means we've been at 50% coverage or less for decades. Maybe there is some missing information that needs to be discussed?
- krastanov 8y agoYou are saying people are not getting booster shots? My parents and I have ours roughly every other decade...
- RobertRoberts 8y agoNo one that I know (adults) have. When was the last time you got a booster shot for smallpox? Also, Merck has been caught falsifying their data on at least one of their vaccines for decades. But this is not commonly shared or known.
- _underfl0w_ 8y agoDo you have a reference you can cite for that?
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
- squozzer 8y agoWhat bothers me about the ban is that anti-vaxxers - at least the ones I've read - are not Luddites. I've never heard an anti-vaxxer say things such as "It's God's (or Gaia's) Will that Johnny died of measles." They believe, wrongly in my opinion, that vaccines cause other medical problems serious enough to justify not using vaccines. To me, that's legitimate dissent. Given the stakes, maybe GoFundMe did the right thing. But what's an acceptable threshold of risk? Because, for various reasons, anti-vaxxing has become a political problem as well as a health problem. Maybe more so. The political aspect - i.e. GoFundMe being vulnerable to political charges of endangering the public - is probably what drove GoFundMe to institute the ban. Which leaves other politically charged uses of GoFundMe vulnerable.
- RobertRoberts 8y agoIn this interview with Dr. Richard Halvorsen, he discusses vaccination based on risk, and which vaccines are needed and which aren't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMs1ue8j9CM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMs1ue8j9CM But if we shut down all discussion about it, even _rational_ discussions will be censored.
- _underfl0w_ 8y agoHas this doctor published anything peer-reviewed?
- RobertRoberts 8y agoWhy not just watch the video and consider what he says? Here's a peer reviewed article on science that is "peer-reviewed". His conclusion? It's based on "belief". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/
- daeken 8y agoYes: A guide to acupuncture. That's it.
- 8y ago
- minikites 8y agoI don't think this is a free speech issue. What's the difference between promoting a scientific falsehood that puts public health at grave risk and yelling "fire" in a crowded theater other than the proximity of damage done?
- esaym 8y agoA huge industry trying to sell a product with no legal liability has nothing to do with "science".
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago> What's the difference between promoting a scientific falsehood that puts public health at grave risk and yelling "fire" in a crowded theater other than the proximity of damage done? Clear and present danger. Both yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre and refusing to vaccinate are a clear danger. But only one of them is clear and present. For comparison, yelling "fire" in an empty plaza would not be penalized.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> yelling "fire" in a crowded theater Can we stop invoking unsupported non-binding dicta offered to illustrate the decision in a case which has since been overturned and is widely regarded as a travesty infringing on core political speech as if it were some kind of firm legal principal useful as a yardstick against which speech can be measured to determine if it is unprotected?
- esaym 8y agoI'll stop being anti-vax when the corporations that manufacture vaccines can be held for legal liability. You do know they lobbied congress in the 1980's for legal immunity right? Would you actually drive a car who's parent company had legal immunity against any manufacturing defects? Probably not... Either way, the insert that comes with every vaccine bottle is a great resource. If you're too lazy to dig up the inserts on the FDA or CDC website there is a nice website that correlates many of them here: https://vaccine.guide/ https://vaccine.guide/ Its a huge money making machine that cannot be sued for medical malpractice. That should raise anyone's flag. To say vaccines are 100% safe means you are either ill-informed or you don't have kids and therefore don't care. I highly doubt gofundme had a personal conviction over this issue. This is a company that is being influenced by an outside source. That should be concerning.
- krastanov 8y agoEvery time I get a flu shot I get an info packet about the Harm Compensation Program https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html Is this not a trivial counterargument to your claims: anyone that was harmed by a vaccine is eligible for a lot of money. Yet few people reach for this fund.
- esaym 8y agoNot at all. You can spend tons of money to put your case before a special "vaccine court" who rarely does anything while the case drags on and on until you run out of money to fund your own case.
- slenk 8y agoCan't be concerned if you die from a preventable disease
- Not_a_pizza 8y agoI get that anti-vaxers are considered dangerous. Equally dangerous is the revolving door between the CDC and vaccination companies which prevent correct levels of scrutinization when batches of vaccinations or specific vaccines are deemed unsafe. Without this comfortable level of accountability, vaccine companies can move forward indefinitely without supplying realistic testing which could prevent detrimental affects that very rarely occur, but can happen. Furthermore, sending bad batches of vaccines downstream to poorer countries should be illegal. Certainly things like this have happened historically. Additionally, the way the government has cozied up to vaccination companies to prevent nearly any lawsuit from taking place related to vaccines seems ridiculous. Vaccines do represent a public good, and as such some protection seems appropriate, but to make it seem like the best possible thing we could ever do to protect populations? I think that's a touch overreaching. People should use vaccines, absolutely. However, vaccine tech has not progressed much in 50 years and part of this may be attributed to the protection of vaccine companies.
- daeken 8y agoEvidence?
- Not_a_pizza 8y agohttps://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/recalls.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/recalls.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/23/asia/faulty-vaccine-china-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/23/asia/faulty-vaccine-china-int... https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/world/middleeast/syrian-children-die-after-vaccinations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/world/middleeast/syrian-c... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-merck-gerberding/former-cdc-head-lands-vaccine-job-at-merck-idUSTRE5BK2K520091221 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-merck-gerberding/former-c... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Injury_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Inj...
- sathishmanohar 8y agoHow about links to CDC leaked documents, released by William Thompson ( CDC scientist and whistle blower ) about scientific fraud at CDC by tampering with the research data of The link between MMR vaccine and Autism?
- ARandomerDude 8y agoFinally! Comrades, the reeducation of the people has begun, and enemies of the people are being silenced. Our glorious revolution will prevail!